Sgt Nightingale
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If, as has been suggested, the Glock was still in the manufacturer's case from new, would the instructions not also be in there?
Can't see it taking a child genius to work out how to do what they see on the telly.
Can't see it taking a child genius to work out how to do what they see on the telly.
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Guilty as charged - No real excusses.
Special Men, 6 months selection, less than 10% pass rate. On a Sabre squadron for the next 10 years.
Flying these boys around the world, occasional visits to their messes doesn't really make any off us experts in their government run world. Does anyone on this forum have a clue what these guys get up to on a daily basis so we can all sleep safe in our beds at night.
Let this die, take the spotlight off these guys and let them get back to what we only dream of doing.
Special Men, 6 months selection, less than 10% pass rate. On a Sabre squadron for the next 10 years.
Flying these boys around the world, occasional visits to their messes doesn't really make any off us experts in their government run world. Does anyone on this forum have a clue what these guys get up to on a daily basis so we can all sleep safe in our beds at night.
Let this die, take the spotlight off these guys and let them get back to what we only dream of doing.
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Nomorefreetime is right, we should take the heat off the SF people.
This is not related to how sharp his end is, it is a serious breach of discipline and needs to be addressed. As it would if had happened to a mess steward at High Wycombe.
I say again, let's concentrate on how the gun got from being manufactured to a SSSA house.
If he really did bring it back to camp from being out at work, why was it not handed in. Under what circumstances was it ok to keep it in his tent?
Did nobody at the gate ask him what's in the box?
Did nobody else know he had the weapon as a gift?
If he had bought it in Manchester six weeks before it was found, would the circumstances look much different?
This is not related to how sharp his end is, it is a serious breach of discipline and needs to be addressed. As it would if had happened to a mess steward at High Wycombe.
I say again, let's concentrate on how the gun got from being manufactured to a SSSA house.
If he really did bring it back to camp from being out at work, why was it not handed in. Under what circumstances was it ok to keep it in his tent?
Did nobody at the gate ask him what's in the box?
Did nobody else know he had the weapon as a gift?
If he had bought it in Manchester six weeks before it was found, would the circumstances look much different?
Quote from DT:
Three years ago I was involved in an incident on an MOD facility, the details of which were leaked to the Press by person(s) inside MOD (probably for money) and was to be doorstepped at home by the Sun. MOD Media Ops were contacted by said newspaper on the eve of running the story and asked for comment. DMC intervened, corrected many of the reporter's so-called 'facts' and requested that I not be named nor my home location revealed because of PERSEC issues, inter alia. The watered-down story ran, but without me being named. But it made the front page of the Times of India, I'm please to report!
In this case I can imagine DMC adopting a more robust approach as a member of the SF community was to be named (with obvious & grave PERSEC implications) and a considerable amount of operational detail could be revealed that was marginal to the story. So the MOD are to be criticised for helping to protect SP and their families? Mrs N has decided to campaign on behalf of her husband, and she has had some sucess; but I do feel uncomfortable about the way this story has been protrayed in the Media, in part through her good office. I don't believe the SF community, nor the MOD has faired well as a result of this criminal case.
I then received a call from the D-Notice Committee — the organisation which reviews all stories dealing with members of the SAS and subjects of national security. Very politely, they told me that naming Sgt Nightingale would breach the D-Notice contract all newspapers have undertaken to uphold voluntarily
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the D Notice committee was long defunct?Three years ago I was involved in an incident on an MOD facility, the details of which were leaked to the Press by person(s) inside MOD (probably for money) and was to be doorstepped at home by the Sun. MOD Media Ops were contacted by said newspaper on the eve of running the story and asked for comment. DMC intervened, corrected many of the reporter's so-called 'facts' and requested that I not be named nor my home location revealed because of PERSEC issues, inter alia. The watered-down story ran, but without me being named. But it made the front page of the Times of India, I'm please to report!
In this case I can imagine DMC adopting a more robust approach as a member of the SF community was to be named (with obvious & grave PERSEC implications) and a considerable amount of operational detail could be revealed that was marginal to the story. So the MOD are to be criticised for helping to protect SP and their families? Mrs N has decided to campaign on behalf of her husband, and she has had some sucess; but I do feel uncomfortable about the way this story has been protrayed in the Media, in part through her good office. I don't believe the SF community, nor the MOD has faired well as a result of this criminal case.
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Originally Posted by airpolice
If, as has been suggested, the Glock was still in the manufacturer's case from new
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All that is in the public domain is on the transcript of the court proceedings. The court accepted that the Glock had not been fired by Nightingale, but it is not mentioned if the gun had been fired before being given to him.
Last edited by airborne_artist; 3rd Dec 2012 at 13:19.
...This is not related to how sharp his end is, it is a serious breach of discipline and needs to be addressed. As it would if had happened to a mess steward at High Wycombe.
I say again, let's concentrate on how the gun got from being manufactured to a SSSA house.
If he really did bring it back to camp from being out at work, why was it not handed in. Under what circumstances was it ok to keep it in his tent?
Did nobody at the gate ask him what's in the box?
Did nobody else know he had the weapon as a gift?
If he really did bring it back to camp from being out at work, why was it not handed in. Under what circumstances was it ok to keep it in his tent?
Did nobody at the gate ask him what's in the box?
Did nobody else know he had the weapon as a gift?
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Baffman, no I'm not
I just think we should all be considering the wider picture, rather than what the editorial staff at the Sun have to say on the matter.
I just think we should all be considering the wider picture, rather than what the editorial staff at the Sun have to say on the matter.
airpolice noted, I'm with you on that. This situation has been created by a public debate, SOME aspects of which have been pretty questionable, so it is hardly surprising that people with a slightly more cynical view will want to discuss it.
I can't even say that a public campaign over a criminal case is necessarily wrong. I was happy to support the Bale Baleiwai petition, one difference there being that the public campaign was not about the court martial case, but about changes in the immigration rules and the general issue of service disciplinary findings having severe consequences beyond the service.
I think what has been making me uneasy is speculation which goes beyond what is already in the court martial transcript or otherwise in the public domain. Agreed that there has been far too much reckless and ill-informed speculation already amongst the "other side".
I wouldn't want someone ultimately convicted by newspapers and twitter, any more than anyone should be acquitted by that means.
I thought it might be worth flagging up these thoughts.
I can't even say that a public campaign over a criminal case is necessarily wrong. I was happy to support the Bale Baleiwai petition, one difference there being that the public campaign was not about the court martial case, but about changes in the immigration rules and the general issue of service disciplinary findings having severe consequences beyond the service.
I think what has been making me uneasy is speculation which goes beyond what is already in the court martial transcript or otherwise in the public domain. Agreed that there has been far too much reckless and ill-informed speculation already amongst the "other side".
I wouldn't want someone ultimately convicted by newspapers and twitter, any more than anyone should be acquitted by that means.
I thought it might be worth flagging up these thoughts.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Given that the man still has an appeal in against conviction and we don't know exactly what procedure will be followed, might we be a little more careful about the extent of Inspector Clouseau-like scenario speculation?
I am not suggesting for one moment that this highly controversial case and the current situation cannot be discussed. "Justice is not a cloistered virtue", etc.
I am not suggesting for one moment that this highly controversial case and the current situation cannot be discussed. "Justice is not a cloistered virtue", etc.
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where was it 'suggested' and how 'new' was it? Do we know if it had ever been fired?
I post below a relevant clip of the CM Transcript.
During that search the items that are detailed in the charges at Charges 1 and 2 were recovered. The search was recovered lawfully and the items at Charge 2 were found in a plastic box under the bed, an administration box which had pens and pencils and all the like in as well as the ammunition, and the item which is the subject of Charge 1, the Glock Pistol, was found in the wardrobe, in the top shelf area if you like of the wardrobe in a black case that it comes in. The black hand gun was accompanied with three magazines and it was examined, as is required in charges of this nature, by a forensic expert on firearms, and it was found to be an Austrian manufactured Glock Model 19 Self-Loading Pistol bearing serial number FZF745 designed to discharge 9mm bulleted cartridges loading from a spring-operated box type magazine, had a barrel length of approximately 9.8 cms and overall length of approximately 20.8 cms. In fair condition due to the level of wear on the black finish and was in working order and it was recovered in the hard plastic Pelican case along with three x 15 shot double-stat spring-operated box type magazines. Each of the magazines was suitable use with the pistol. The forensic expert confirmed that the Glock Pistol constituted a firearm for the purposes of section 57 of The Firearms Act and that it was a prohibited weapon for the purpose of section 5(1)(aba) of The Firearms Act 1968.
What I find interesting there is that the report of the examination gives no details of the manufacturing date. Also the comment
In fair condition due to the level of wear on the black finish and was in working order
Later in the trial...
JUDGE ADVOCATE: Well Mr Winter, it is a classic pistol carrying box is it not?
MR WINTER: No, it is not. They are designed for multi-use carrying. Indeed I checked them out on the internet. They are sold by a general supplier for multi-purpose carrying. They quite often use … it is built to use them to carry drill rounds. Inside plainly its foam has been designed to carry a gun, but outside that is not so and my instructions are, no doubt the members of the board will know this much better than I do, that they are frequently used in the army for carrying all manner of things.
MR WINTER: No, it is not. They are designed for multi-use carrying. Indeed I checked them out on the internet. They are sold by a general supplier for multi-purpose carrying. They quite often use … it is built to use them to carry drill rounds. Inside plainly its foam has been designed to carry a gun, but outside that is not so and my instructions are, no doubt the members of the board will know this much better than I do, that they are frequently used in the army for carrying all manner of things.
Perhaps we will know more in time, but what would be the benefit of the three clips, if the gun was to be mounted in the Mess as a trophy?
The ammunition, if indeed it is the subject of poor admin from time on the range, is a different issue. The clips can't really have come from the UK range along with the ammo since he'd have had to put them in the gun box, not in the clear plastic box with the ammo. At that point he'd have seen the gun and realised that it should be handed in.
All three (empty) clips would need to have been put in the box, with the Glock before the "memory loss" and indeed, in Iraq.
How easy is that to believe, that in 2007 he's presented with a gun and three empty clips as a trophy for the Regiment? If poor admin can make 300 rounds of ammo go astray, how hard can it be to make off with an empty magazine?
Again, pleading guilty, to avoid investigation, and questions, is a really smart move.
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Again, pleading guilty, to avoid investigation, and questions, is a really smart move.
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Wouldn't it be a right laugh if............... his legal team had done a plea bargain for 18 months and not dismissed or reduced in exchange for a guilty plea and a promise of keeping quiet. Then, as soon as the sentence is confirmed, he gets 'er inside of the doors to go to the Press and make out the full "war hero in pokey while Ali Bin Liner preaches hate and lives on benefits" card to stir up trouble. Too late then to charge him with anything else I suppose and let's not have the press hearing we did a plea bargain.
I'm not suggesting that such a thing happened, I'm just saying it would be "funny" if it had.
Oddly, the people I hear defending him the loudest are not mil or ex mil. They are just the public falling for the "SAS hero betrayed by Army" spiel.
I doubt that many of the 100,000 who signed the petitions would even care if it turns out that the Glock was manufactured in 2009. This may not be the perfect crime, but from the point of view of the accused, it certainly looks like the perfect trial.
I'm not suggesting that such a thing happened, I'm just saying it would be "funny" if it had.
Oddly, the people I hear defending him the loudest are not mil or ex mil. They are just the public falling for the "SAS hero betrayed by Army" spiel.
I doubt that many of the 100,000 who signed the petitions would even care if it turns out that the Glock was manufactured in 2009. This may not be the perfect crime, but from the point of view of the accused, it certainly looks like the perfect trial.
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OK the last time I used a weapon was many years ago but when I read the comment about the weapon not being fired the first thing that crossed my mind was that it could also have been striped down and cleaned afterwards. How could they be so certain of that statement?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Clicker, if a barrel scores a bullet perhaps a bullet also wears the barrel?
I would have thought that all weapons will have been proved before issue ergo it must have been fired at some time.
According to this site Glock Serial Numbers a G19 FZR - G-19 - Unknown - 3rd Gen. - LCI Extractor would have been made around 2004. The site does not list FZF serials.
In fair condition due to the level of wear on the black finish
According to this site Glock Serial Numbers a G19 FZR - G-19 - Unknown - 3rd Gen. - LCI Extractor would have been made around 2004. The site does not list FZF serials.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 3rd Dec 2012 at 16:41.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Retrial maybe, but is reported that it is an appeal against a conviction not a retrial. My point stands, on what grounds can you appeal on a guilty plea except against the sentence not the conviction unless there was something wrong with the judicial process where the guilty plea was forced or ill advised.
