The South China Sea's Gathering Storm
Unsikable carriers?
I still have small scars from being shouted at by a USN admiral "Son, our carriers WILL NOT BE SUNK, so F%&*ing unsink it!!" (I'd put its flight deck unusable due to a list induced by a torpedo attack in the Aegean, during a CPX)
What really scared me was that right beside his backbone I think he believed his statement.
The Ancient Mariner
What really scared me was that right beside his backbone I think he believed his statement.
The Ancient Mariner
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Defense News: China-Japan Island Dispute Could Become Flashpoint
TAIPEI — While North Korea has garnered attention as Asia’s top hotspot, experts worry that the real problem is between Beijing and Tokyo over the Japanese-controlled Senkaku Islands, which China calls the Diaoyu Islands.
Over the past month, rhetoric has soared between new nationalistic leaders in China and Japan as each deploys hardware to the region.
China’s increased ship and air patrols to the islands have prompted an unprecedented response from Japan: Keep out or we will use force to keep you out. Japanese Defense Minister Itsunori Onodera said, “Japan is determined to protect its land, water and air.” And to help its key ally, America’s top military leaders have told Beijing that if the shooting starts, Washington is treaty- and duty-bound to back Tokyo.
That, in turn, has prompted China to declare the islands a “core interest” in a bid to force Tokyo and Washington to back down, a move that’s unlikely to work...........
TAIPEI — While North Korea has garnered attention as Asia’s top hotspot, experts worry that the real problem is between Beijing and Tokyo over the Japanese-controlled Senkaku Islands, which China calls the Diaoyu Islands.
Over the past month, rhetoric has soared between new nationalistic leaders in China and Japan as each deploys hardware to the region.
China’s increased ship and air patrols to the islands have prompted an unprecedented response from Japan: Keep out or we will use force to keep you out. Japanese Defense Minister Itsunori Onodera said, “Japan is determined to protect its land, water and air.” And to help its key ally, America’s top military leaders have told Beijing that if the shooting starts, Washington is treaty- and duty-bound to back Tokyo.
That, in turn, has prompted China to declare the islands a “core interest” in a bid to force Tokyo and Washington to back down, a move that’s unlikely to work...........
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Some historical content
One cannot blame modern Japan for what happend 70+ years ago however in the eyes of many in the region in places such as China, Vietnam, Korea and other nations there is still much resentment over what happened back then. Its not helpful for the Japanese PM to come out with things like this:-
Japan PM dismisses WWII war crimes trials as 'victors' justice' - Telegraph
When one thinks of Japan pre 1945 and also much of the tension in the region today one needs to think of the following. I urge you to read the links:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banka_Island_massacre
At mid-morning the ship’s officer returned with about twenty Japanese soldiers. They ordered all the wounded men capable of walking to travel around a headland. The nurses heard a quick succession of shots before the Japanese soldiers came back, sat down in front of the women and cleaned their bayonets and rifles.[1] A Japanese officer ordered the remaining twenty two nurses and one civilian woman to walk into the surf.[1] A machine gun was set up on the beach and when the women were waist deep, they were machine-gunned. All but Sister Lt Vivian Bullwinkel were killed.[1]
Shot in the diaphragm, Bullwinkel was unconscious when she washed up on the beach and was left for dead. She evaded capture for ten days, but was eventually caught and imprisoned. She survived the war and gave evidence of the massacre at a war crimes trial in Tokyo in 1947.[2]
To kill nurses in this way, its unspeakable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...and#War_crimes
Rear Admiral Shigematsu Sakaibara ordered the execution of the 98 captured American civilian workers remaining on the island, kept to perform forced labor. They were taken to the northern end of the island, blindfolded and executed with a machine gun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parit_Sulong_Massacre
The wounded prisoners of war were kicked and beaten with rifle butts by the Imperial Guards. At least some were tied up with wire in the middle of the road, machine-gunned, had petrol poured over them, were set alight and (in the words of Russell Braddon) were "after their incineration — [were] systematically run over, back and forwards, by Japanese driven trucks."[1] Anecdotal accounts by local people also reported POWs being tied together with wire and forced to stand on a bridge, before a Japanese soldier shot one, causing the rest to fall into the Simpang Kiri river and drown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palawa...lawan_Massacre
During World War II, in order to prevent the rescue of prisoners of war by the advancing allies, on 14 December 1944, units of the Japanese Fourteenth Area Army (under the command of General Tomoyuki Yama****a) herded the remaining 150 prisoners of war at Puerto Princesa into three covered trenches which were then set on fire using barrels of gasoline. Prisoners who tried to escape the flames were shot down.[9] Others attempted to escape by climbing over a cliff that ran along one side of the trenches, but were later hunted down and killed. Only 11 men escaped the slaughter and between 133 and 141 were killed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
No wonder there is still much tension between China and Japan!!!
Japan PM dismisses WWII war crimes trials as 'victors' justice' - Telegraph
When one thinks of Japan pre 1945 and also much of the tension in the region today one needs to think of the following. I urge you to read the links:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banka_Island_massacre
At mid-morning the ship’s officer returned with about twenty Japanese soldiers. They ordered all the wounded men capable of walking to travel around a headland. The nurses heard a quick succession of shots before the Japanese soldiers came back, sat down in front of the women and cleaned their bayonets and rifles.[1] A Japanese officer ordered the remaining twenty two nurses and one civilian woman to walk into the surf.[1] A machine gun was set up on the beach and when the women were waist deep, they were machine-gunned. All but Sister Lt Vivian Bullwinkel were killed.[1]
Shot in the diaphragm, Bullwinkel was unconscious when she washed up on the beach and was left for dead. She evaded capture for ten days, but was eventually caught and imprisoned. She survived the war and gave evidence of the massacre at a war crimes trial in Tokyo in 1947.[2]
To kill nurses in this way, its unspeakable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...and#War_crimes
Rear Admiral Shigematsu Sakaibara ordered the execution of the 98 captured American civilian workers remaining on the island, kept to perform forced labor. They were taken to the northern end of the island, blindfolded and executed with a machine gun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parit_Sulong_Massacre
The wounded prisoners of war were kicked and beaten with rifle butts by the Imperial Guards. At least some were tied up with wire in the middle of the road, machine-gunned, had petrol poured over them, were set alight and (in the words of Russell Braddon) were "after their incineration — [were] systematically run over, back and forwards, by Japanese driven trucks."[1] Anecdotal accounts by local people also reported POWs being tied together with wire and forced to stand on a bridge, before a Japanese soldier shot one, causing the rest to fall into the Simpang Kiri river and drown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palawa...lawan_Massacre
During World War II, in order to prevent the rescue of prisoners of war by the advancing allies, on 14 December 1944, units of the Japanese Fourteenth Area Army (under the command of General Tomoyuki Yama****a) herded the remaining 150 prisoners of war at Puerto Princesa into three covered trenches which were then set on fire using barrels of gasoline. Prisoners who tried to escape the flames were shot down.[9] Others attempted to escape by climbing over a cliff that ran along one side of the trenches, but were later hunted down and killed. Only 11 men escaped the slaughter and between 133 and 141 were killed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
No wonder there is still much tension between China and Japan!!!
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yeah - and we killed & burnt 100,000 Japanese civilians in a flash (literally)
"War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it" - Sherman
"War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it" - Sherman
Last edited by Heathrow Harry; 6th May 2013 at 12:28.
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In the 21st Century, Japan is a pluralist democracy, ruled by law. China is not and wants part of Japan. Japan says no. Ronald Reagan comes out of the woodwork with historical grievances.
Are these the same grievances as Catholic vs. Protestant in NI? How about the Balkans, historical grievances Catholic, orthodox:Muslim? How about the Middle East? Christian:Jew:Muslim? How about white expansion in America? No crimes? No slavery?
Japan followed the early 20th Century European model of military dictatorship and colonial exapansion. Japan's crime was to be yellow. China and Korea play the race card. That goes down unthinkingly well with whites.
Japan has no problems with Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, Myanmar, or Malaysia.
Are these the same grievances as Catholic vs. Protestant in NI? How about the Balkans, historical grievances Catholic, orthodox:Muslim? How about the Middle East? Christian:Jew:Muslim? How about white expansion in America? No crimes? No slavery?
Japan followed the early 20th Century European model of military dictatorship and colonial exapansion. Japan's crime was to be yellow. China and Korea play the race card. That goes down unthinkingly well with whites.
Japan has no problems with Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, Myanmar, or Malaysia.
Last edited by Yamagata ken; 6th May 2013 at 12:51.
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I do feel for the Japanese civilians who were killed or injured.
But that does not change what they did to the civilians of occupied nations or to our people they took prisoner, I mean who decides to machine gun nurses or set POWs on fire?!
Another interesting but very disturning read is:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
One case of human experimentation occurred in Japan itself. At least nine out of 11 crew members survived the crash of a U.S. Army Air Forces B-29 bomber on Kyūshū, on May 5, 1945. (This plane was Lt. Marvin Watkins' crew of the 29th Bomb Group of the 6th Bomb Squadron.[53]) The bomber's commander was separated from his crew and sent to Tokyo for interrogation, while the other survivors were taken to the anatomy department of Kyushu University, at Fukuoka, where they were subjected to vivisection or killed
But that does not change what they did to the civilians of occupied nations or to our people they took prisoner, I mean who decides to machine gun nurses or set POWs on fire?!
Another interesting but very disturning read is:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
One case of human experimentation occurred in Japan itself. At least nine out of 11 crew members survived the crash of a U.S. Army Air Forces B-29 bomber on Kyūshū, on May 5, 1945. (This plane was Lt. Marvin Watkins' crew of the 29th Bomb Group of the 6th Bomb Squadron.[53]) The bomber's commander was separated from his crew and sent to Tokyo for interrogation, while the other survivors were taken to the anatomy department of Kyushu University, at Fukuoka, where they were subjected to vivisection or killed
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You are playing the contemptible race card. Again. By your standards, China should be be allowed to occupy Japan.
White people (Nazi Germany, Belgian Congo) never did hatefull things. But now in the 21st Century Japan should yield to China! Why not Germany or Belgium?
White people (Nazi Germany, Belgian Congo) never did hatefull things. But now in the 21st Century Japan should yield to China! Why not Germany or Belgium?
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I hope there is not a war between China and Japan but if one did take place I hope we would not get involved. Its none of our concern. I should point out yet again I am not against the Japanes people of today (vast majority were not even born then) but its important these crimes from the past are remembered, its a terrible tragedy if they are forgotten. The governments of other nations in the region maybe happy to forget but many of the people in those nations are not! I have heard that from friends in China, Vietnam, Singapore and South Korea.
My Grandfather never forgot the loss of his brother and the Far East POWs never forgot what they went through either!
I am certainly not a fan of the current Japanese Prime Minister and his recent comments:-
Japan PM dismisses WWII war crimes trials as 'victors' justice' - Telegraph
My Grandfather never forgot the loss of his brother and the Far East POWs never forgot what they went through either!
I am certainly not a fan of the current Japanese Prime Minister and his recent comments:-
Japan PM dismisses WWII war crimes trials as 'victors' justice' - Telegraph
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Japan is a pluralist democracy ruled by law. China is a one party state. Japan is no threat to any nation. China threatens all nations in east Asia.
The USA chooses to share its military technology with Japan (Aegis, now possibly the F35) as Japan is a trusted ally. The USA does not share these with China or Korea.
Abe is right to lay down the law. Any attempt by China to occupy Japanese Territory will be an act of war. If China starts a war in East Asia, the USA will be involved.
The USA chooses to share its military technology with Japan (Aegis, now possibly the F35) as Japan is a trusted ally. The USA does not share these with China or Korea.
Abe is right to lay down the law. Any attempt by China to occupy Japanese Territory will be an act of war. If China starts a war in East Asia, the USA will be involved.
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Ronald Reagan,
What you have written would appear to say that you accept Chinas' current confrontational methods against the Japanese as being acceptable. Am I correct? Does this give the UK the right to be aggressive with the USA, with Germany or with France? After all we have been at war with all of the at some time.
What about the Chinese stance on the invasion of Ladakh two weeks ago? They still occupy the area.
Or Chinas stance on claiming most of the South China sea and all the lands there that are currently owned by the Philippinnes or Vietnam or Malaysia or Brunei? Or the following claims to own areas of: -
Do you believe that China is correct in their claims to the above?
What you have written would appear to say that you accept Chinas' current confrontational methods against the Japanese as being acceptable. Am I correct? Does this give the UK the right to be aggressive with the USA, with Germany or with France? After all we have been at war with all of the at some time.
What about the Chinese stance on the invasion of Ladakh two weeks ago? They still occupy the area.
Or Chinas stance on claiming most of the South China sea and all the lands there that are currently owned by the Philippinnes or Vietnam or Malaysia or Brunei? Or the following claims to own areas of: -
- Burma
- Laos
- Northern India
- Vietnam
- Nepal
- Bhutan
- Thailand
- Malaysia
- Singapore
- The Ryukyu Islands
- 300 islands of the South China, East China and Yellow Seas
- Kyrgyzstan
- Mongolia
- Taiwan
- South Kazakhstan
- The Afghan province of Bahdashan, Transbaikalia and the Far East to South Okhotsk
Do you believe that China is correct in their claims to the above?
Last edited by hval; 6th May 2013 at 14:44.
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The Japan of today is different to the Japan of the 40s. One cannot hold any member of the Japanese public alive to today for the sins of those from the 30s and 40s. What is done is done. History is history. China has no more right to invade or attack Japanese territory than Japan had in 1937.
It is quite infantile to claim "They did it to us, now we will do it to them" if indeed that is what the Chinese powers that be are thinking. And it's a poor argument for outsiders to use to justify any actions the Chinese might bring upon Japan.
Personally I think this is all sabre rattling which will eventually quieten down.
Japan is allied to a lot of nations with whom China trades. Biggest of all being the US. I don't think China can afford to cause a war to erupt between themselves and Japan for that reason.
It is quite infantile to claim "They did it to us, now we will do it to them" if indeed that is what the Chinese powers that be are thinking. And it's a poor argument for outsiders to use to justify any actions the Chinese might bring upon Japan.
Personally I think this is all sabre rattling which will eventually quieten down.
Japan is allied to a lot of nations with whom China trades. Biggest of all being the US. I don't think China can afford to cause a war to erupt between themselves and Japan for that reason.
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Thank you very much gentlemen.
West Coast, I'm disappointed that RR comes from my adopted home county in the UK. Your point about duty is well appreciated, thank you.
Abe is the Prime Minister of Japan, elected by a significant majority. Abe is not a cowboy or a maverick. He was elected by popular will, in large part because he has the guts to draw a line in the sand.
China will cross that line at its peril, but Abe is not working alone. Japan and the USA share strategic interests.
West Coast, I'm disappointed that RR comes from my adopted home county in the UK. Your point about duty is well appreciated, thank you.
Abe is the Prime Minister of Japan, elected by a significant majority. Abe is not a cowboy or a maverick. He was elected by popular will, in large part because he has the guts to draw a line in the sand.
China will cross that line at its peril, but Abe is not working alone. Japan and the USA share strategic interests.
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I find it rather disgusting that so many in the west are willing to simply write off what our people were put through and not to mention the populations of so many nations. From what people are saying here its as if what our soldiers went through means nothing, nothing at all. To our governments they are simply an inconvenience to be forgotten, it seems to many others they are the same. When the current Japanese Prime Minister talks of the war crimes not actually being war crimes many in the west simply accept it. I am amazed but probably not surprised! It would have been better for my Great Uncle and all the others to simply be conscientious objectors, would have been able to live full lives then, rather than fighting for those who care nothing for them at all and would simply forget them or to try and air brush them from history.
As for the Chinese bashing, they seem to be doing ok, in about 5 years they will probably be the largest economy on Earth. I think what they want is going to be rather important. That fact must terrify some!!! It makes me rather happy to be honest. For communists they seem to have a better grasp of economics and capitalism than many other so called capitalist nations!
hval, as for the territorial disputes, I would imagine the Chinese are correct about some of them, not all of them. When it comes to such things there are atleast two sides involved, possibly more, it can prove very hard to resolve. China will probably have enough muscle to eventually get some of what it wants. I hope it does not go to far though.
As for the Chinese bashing, they seem to be doing ok, in about 5 years they will probably be the largest economy on Earth. I think what they want is going to be rather important. That fact must terrify some!!! It makes me rather happy to be honest. For communists they seem to have a better grasp of economics and capitalism than many other so called capitalist nations!
hval, as for the territorial disputes, I would imagine the Chinese are correct about some of them, not all of them. When it comes to such things there are atleast two sides involved, possibly more, it can prove very hard to resolve. China will probably have enough muscle to eventually get some of what it wants. I hope it does not go to far though.
Last edited by Ronald Reagan; 6th May 2013 at 16:57.
I for one don't want to forget the horrors the Japanese inflicted upon innocents, but that doesn't factor in to the current turf war.
The Chinese are not without blood on their hands, how many died during the cultural revolution?
The Chinese are not without blood on their hands, how many died during the cultural revolution?
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The Chinese were a very powerful nation that went through 150 years of being treat like dirt and having large parts of the country shaved off by other countries
now they are on their way back they are looking to recover all/part/some of what was lost (Tibet was the first act here)
On the other hand they have shown on a number of occasions that they are willing to negotiate boundaries on a face-to-face basis - the only condition is that the negotiations are one-on-one and that there is a genuine desire to deal. The Chinese have often stated that they will consider "realities on the ground".
They have done boundary deals with Pakistan, Nepal and Burma and no-one has lost much or any land.
They are a big player and about to become bigger - history shows that such countries like to control events in their neighbourhood (Latin America anyone states-side?)
now they are on their way back they are looking to recover all/part/some of what was lost (Tibet was the first act here)
On the other hand they have shown on a number of occasions that they are willing to negotiate boundaries on a face-to-face basis - the only condition is that the negotiations are one-on-one and that there is a genuine desire to deal. The Chinese have often stated that they will consider "realities on the ground".
They have done boundary deals with Pakistan, Nepal and Burma and no-one has lost much or any land.
They are a big player and about to become bigger - history shows that such countries like to control events in their neighbourhood (Latin America anyone states-side?)
Last edited by Heathrow Harry; 6th May 2013 at 17:33.
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Ronald Reagan,
Thanks for your response.
You write about the atrocities that the Japanese carried out pre WW II and during WW II and are totally correct that they should not be forgotten - but purely for the lessons that can be learnt. Surely we need to forgive some time? After all, I am certain that the massive majority of Japanese have absolutely no interest in carrying on in that fashion. Are there any Japanese still alive that were involved in atrocities? Why blame a nation for what their forbears did?
I would also ask you what about the atrocities carried out by the Germans pre WW II and during WW II? What about the atrocities carried out by Russians during and after WW II? What about the PIRA? What about Somalia? I could go on. If we never forgave and forgot there would be continuous warfare on a global scale. In fact I guess that mankind would be wiped out.
As for what the Japanese put the British and Allies through, just think what the British put the rest of the world through via their empire. Not all of it was good.
As has been written, China also committed many atrocities, and like the West, CCCP, Russia and others has played at war by proxy for many, many years.
You write "I would imagine the Chinese are correct about some of them, not all of them". Why do China have to be right about any of them? As for you comment about China having sufficient muscle soon to do what they wish, I am like you that I truly do not wish for that to occur. I really, really do not.
Thanks for your response.
You write about the atrocities that the Japanese carried out pre WW II and during WW II and are totally correct that they should not be forgotten - but purely for the lessons that can be learnt. Surely we need to forgive some time? After all, I am certain that the massive majority of Japanese have absolutely no interest in carrying on in that fashion. Are there any Japanese still alive that were involved in atrocities? Why blame a nation for what their forbears did?
I would also ask you what about the atrocities carried out by the Germans pre WW II and during WW II? What about the atrocities carried out by Russians during and after WW II? What about the PIRA? What about Somalia? I could go on. If we never forgave and forgot there would be continuous warfare on a global scale. In fact I guess that mankind would be wiped out.
As for what the Japanese put the British and Allies through, just think what the British put the rest of the world through via their empire. Not all of it was good.
As has been written, China also committed many atrocities, and like the West, CCCP, Russia and others has played at war by proxy for many, many years.
You write "I would imagine the Chinese are correct about some of them, not all of them". Why do China have to be right about any of them? As for you comment about China having sufficient muscle soon to do what they wish, I am like you that I truly do not wish for that to occur. I really, really do not.