Airships in the RAF?
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As to HMA 9R
This was the first UK rigid airship that actually managed to fly, and that may be the reason for the painting
A brief guide to its history is at airshipsonline:airships:hma_9
Its appears to have been Navy operated during its short life. It has to be regarded very much as an experimental design
More importantly it got Barnes Wallis involved in aircraft design at Vickers
This was the first UK rigid airship that actually managed to fly, and that may be the reason for the painting
A brief guide to its history is at airshipsonline:airships:hma_9
Its appears to have been Navy operated during its short life. It has to be regarded very much as an experimental design
More importantly it got Barnes Wallis involved in aircraft design at Vickers
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 18th Aug 2012 at 22:59.
Lighter Than Air Road at Cranwell might provide a clue. It leads from Cranwell Avenue northwards through the OMQ patch towards the old airship sheds which were located there but no longer exist!
More bang for your buck
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Originally Cardington was owned by Short brothers, hence the name Shorts Town for the large housing estate clustered around the entrance to the field.
After a relatively short period of time and after the first of the sheds was erected it was compulsory purchased by the government and became the Royal Airships Works.
As for the RAF involvement they were certainly operated by the RAF as the Royal Navy's Air Service and the Army's Royal flying Corps ceased to exist and were merged to form the RAF.
There is an excellent book called 'Airships Cardington' (from the telegraph address) which traces the story of the place.
After a relatively short period of time and after the first of the sheds was erected it was compulsory purchased by the government and became the Royal Airships Works.
As for the RAF involvement they were certainly operated by the RAF as the Royal Navy's Air Service and the Army's Royal flying Corps ceased to exist and were merged to form the RAF.
There is an excellent book called 'Airships Cardington' (from the telegraph address) which traces the story of the place.
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There is no mention of an airship in any of the RAF source books I have looked in. I take Owen Thetford's Aircraft of the Royal Air Force Since 1918 as the bible in these matters but I have not seen his other book British Naval Aircraft Since 1912 . Now, if anyone has a copy of that, maybe the answer lies within.
There is no mention of an airship in any of the RAF source books I have looked in. I take Owen Thetford's Aircraft of the Royal Air Force Since 1918 as the bible in these matters but I have not seen his other book British Naval Aircraft Since 1912 . Now, if anyone has a copy of that, maybe the answer lies within.
R.34 was similarly an RAF operated rigid airship, as would have been all the other remaining ex-RNAS rigid craft after the merger of the RNAS and RFC on 1/4/1918.
Thetford is good, but not infallable - he doesn't cover Air Cadet gliders in any great detail, each edition of AotRAF only copvered what was then currently in service.
Last edited by XV277; 23rd Aug 2012 at 09:26.
In the 1990's there was an airship doing the rounds, but not sure who it was operated by.
www.ukserials.com lists a "Skyship 500" ZH762, so that may have been the one, though they don't mention the operator/owner.
www.ukserials.com lists a "Skyship 500" ZH762, so that may have been the one, though they don't mention the operator/owner.
Spooky how these things come up.
From this day in history 23 Aug 1921:
From this day in history 23 Aug 1921:
HM Airship R38 - which had been sold to the US Navy while under construction - broke up in the air over Hull during an acceptance test flight. Air Cdre E. M. Maitland, Cdr L. H. Maxwell USN, twenty-seven officers and men of the RAF and fifteen officers and men of the USN were killed. The captain of the R38 and three crew members survived.
Taken from: The Royal Air Force Day by Day by Air Cdre G Pitchfork
Taken from: The Royal Air Force Day by Day by Air Cdre G Pitchfork
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In the 1990's there was an airship doing the rounds, but not sure who it was operated by.
www.ukserials.com lists a "Skyship 500" ZH762, so that may have been the one, though they don't mention the operator/owner.
www.ukserials.com lists a "Skyship 500" ZH762, so that may have been the one, though they don't mention the operator/owner.
This pic shows the size in comparison to the Cardington sheds - the 90s Helium airships were miniscule in compariosn to the rigid ones of the 20s.
http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1077177M.jpg
Thread Starter
Rigid Airships. Question of operator.
Roland,
I think your suggestion about visiting AHB is favourite to find the answer to this question. However, comma....
Just because the RNAS was absorbed into the RAF in April 1918, it does not mean the Admiralty relinquished its role as Rigid Airship operator. The last military flight before all airship operations came under the Imperial Airship Scheme took place in 1919 AFAIK. I believe the RAF may have provided some manpower and airfield facilities after April 1918 but the Admiralty continued as the owner operator and hence, the RAF has never owned/had/operated/flown/whatever a rigid airship. That's my story and it needs to be disproved before I hand over the beer.
I think your suggestion about visiting AHB is favourite to find the answer to this question. However, comma....
Just because the RNAS was absorbed into the RAF in April 1918, it does not mean the Admiralty relinquished its role as Rigid Airship operator. The last military flight before all airship operations came under the Imperial Airship Scheme took place in 1919 AFAIK. I believe the RAF may have provided some manpower and airfield facilities after April 1918 but the Admiralty continued as the owner operator and hence, the RAF has never owned/had/operated/flown/whatever a rigid airship. That's my story and it needs to be disproved before I hand over the beer.
Last edited by mike rondot; 24th Aug 2012 at 19:13. Reason: Sp
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Mike,
Bit more research has shown that Thetford, as quoted above, was wrong. R.33 seems to have been demilitarised in 1920, although still used for RAF related trials such as:
AEROPLANE LAUNCHED FROM THE AIR - British Pathé
However, R.34 appears to never have been civillianised, and was operated by the Air Ministry for some of the time before her demise in 1921.
As Milo quotes above:
So Admiralty owned, Air Ministry operated. Does that count as RAF? Might be best called a draw!!
Airshipsonline : Airships : R34
(and of course her captain was Major G H Scott A.F.C)
Bit more research has shown that Thetford, as quoted above, was wrong. R.33 seems to have been demilitarised in 1920, although still used for RAF related trials such as:
AEROPLANE LAUNCHED FROM THE AIR - British Pathé
However, R.34 appears to never have been civillianised, and was operated by the Air Ministry for some of the time before her demise in 1921.
As Milo quotes above:
The Admiralty agreed to lend their airships to the Air Ministry for long-distance trials.
Airshipsonline : Airships : R34
(and of course her captain was Major G H Scott A.F.C)
Last edited by XV277; 24th Aug 2012 at 22:32.
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Presumably "Air Ministry" at that point would be civilian (more of a business / industry development / research department on the lines of NACA) - but they would have to draw on military crew to fly it. Also interesting is that USA crew were on exchanges in the UK - for instance this USA naval officer who was on that first transatlantic crossing of the R34
USS Shenandoah
USS Shenandoah
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 24th Aug 2012 at 22:35.
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XV277 et al
ZH762 was 'written off' when it flew into trees at Boscombe....the fable goes that the helium involved caused those attempting to hang onto nose-guide ropes were Pinky & Perky-esque for a while afterwards, but I don't believe it!
The gondola was fine, only the envelope was damaged; the whole combo sat in the Weighbridge hangar until they decided to ditch it. The ultimate operator was meant to be the Amateur Aeroplane Company, supposedly for Op BANNER duties, but again that was speculation and informed comment at the time
ZH762 was 'written off' when it flew into trees at Boscombe....the fable goes that the helium involved caused those attempting to hang onto nose-guide ropes were Pinky & Perky-esque for a while afterwards, but I don't believe it!
The gondola was fine, only the envelope was damaged; the whole combo sat in the Weighbridge hangar until they decided to ditch it. The ultimate operator was meant to be the Amateur Aeroplane Company, supposedly for Op BANNER duties, but again that was speculation and informed comment at the time
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Little-Used Branch Line
On 1 April 1916, the Royal Naval Air Service, Training Establishment, Cranwell was officially born.
As the naval personnel were held on the books of HMS Daedalus, a hulk that was moored on the River Medway, this gave rise to a misconception that Cranwell was first established as HMS Daedalus.
With the establishment of the Royal Air Force as an independent service in 1918, the RNAS Training Establishment became RAF Cranwell.
So since RAF Cranwell has existed since 1918, this exerpt from the RAF Cranwell College Journal V25, 1953 clearly shows an "Airship Section" ivo Brauncewell Road/Primrose Lane/Longcroft Drive in current OMQs.
Google Earth also shows (still in existance) the:
Station (currently MGR) 530208.72N 0002952.92W
1923 Loco Shed 530215.10N 0003007.24W
Larger Shed (behind current Community Centre) 530211.54N 0002957.12W
Airships weren't the only thing that came to Cranwell from Cardington!
As the naval personnel were held on the books of HMS Daedalus, a hulk that was moored on the River Medway, this gave rise to a misconception that Cranwell was first established as HMS Daedalus.
With the establishment of the Royal Air Force as an independent service in 1918, the RNAS Training Establishment became RAF Cranwell.
So since RAF Cranwell has existed since 1918, this exerpt from the RAF Cranwell College Journal V25, 1953 clearly shows an "Airship Section" ivo Brauncewell Road/Primrose Lane/Longcroft Drive in current OMQs.
Google Earth also shows (still in existance) the:
Station (currently MGR) 530208.72N 0002952.92W
1923 Loco Shed 530215.10N 0003007.24W
Larger Shed (behind current Community Centre) 530211.54N 0002957.12W
Airships weren't the only thing that came to Cranwell from Cardington!
Thread Starter
Interesting, but no coconut
Unclenelli,
Cranwell Airship Section on street map
No, that won't do. The question is about Rigid Airships in the RAF and I am not convinced that there were any. Everyone appears to be applying logic and common sense to this question which, as we all know, has no place in the military when it comes to inter-service rivalry.
Cranwell Airship Section on street map
No, that won't do. The question is about Rigid Airships in the RAF and I am not convinced that there were any. Everyone appears to be applying logic and common sense to this question which, as we all know, has no place in the military when it comes to inter-service rivalry.
Mike
How about R31, built at RAF Cardington, first flown for 2 hrs by Sqn Ldr W C Hicks AFC RAF in July 1918 and adorned with a RAF roundel? She flew a 2nd test flight on 16 Oct 18 from Cardington for 2 hrs.
See here Airshipsonline : Airships : R31
She was not an H.M.A. and the RNAS had dissolved before first flight, so she was de facto RAF by default. She also flew for 4hrs 55mins in the last 5 days of the Great War after commisioning as a RAF airship on 6 Nov 18.
I can find Hicks' appointment of a Permanent Commission and promotion to Wg Cdr in the Gazette here in 1919:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issu...11919/page.pdf
This is a direct quote from the London Gazzette from the Air Ministry in 1918:
Can I claim my virtual beer for this?
LJ
How about R31, built at RAF Cardington, first flown for 2 hrs by Sqn Ldr W C Hicks AFC RAF in July 1918 and adorned with a RAF roundel? She flew a 2nd test flight on 16 Oct 18 from Cardington for 2 hrs.
See here Airshipsonline : Airships : R31
She was not an H.M.A. and the RNAS had dissolved before first flight, so she was de facto RAF by default. She also flew for 4hrs 55mins in the last 5 days of the Great War after commisioning as a RAF airship on 6 Nov 18.
I can find Hicks' appointment of a Permanent Commission and promotion to Wg Cdr in the Gazette here in 1919:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issu...11919/page.pdf
This is a direct quote from the London Gazzette from the Air Ministry in 1918:
All Officers serving with the Royal Naval Air Service and Royal Flying Corps on the 31st March 1918, or in connection with those Services in certain Government Departments, in other than the undermentioned capacities, are granted temporary commissions in the Royal Air Force, with effect from the 1st April, 1918, in ranks which will appear in the Royal Air Force List.
LJ
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You can de facto all you want, but if the RN never formally transferred inventory custody of the airships via the correct paperwork, they were de jure still Royal Navy owned!
GK
How about this then from the same website:
Airshipsonline : Airships : R32
quod erat demonstrandum per chance?
LJ
How about this then from the same website:
The R32 was commissioned in to the Navy on 3rd September 1919, with the original plans of being a high speed Naval scout ship. However with the war over, there was confusion as to what to do with the R32, and the other airships still in existence. After her first trail flight on 3rd September 1919 which took the ship around Bedofrd to salute the town of her construction, she flew on to Pulham Airship Station in Norfolk on the 6th September. She was technically decommissioned from the Navy in October 1919 and her ownership changed to the new Royal Air Force, who took over all airship operations
quod erat demonstrandum per chance?
LJ
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All Officers serving with the Royal Naval Air Service and Royal Flying Corps on the 31st March 1918, or in connection with those Services in certain Government Departments, in other than the undermentioned capacities, are granted temporary commissions in the Royal Air Force, with effect from the 1st April, 1918, in ranks which will appear in the Royal Air Force List.
Can I claim my virtual beer for this?
Ok, so it was a private venture at Cardington until Apr 19 when the Royal Airship Works began having been bought by the Air Ministry - so that covers R31. But R32 was definately a RAF Pulham bird and that changed hands on 1 Apr 18.
So I still claim my beer...
So I still claim my beer...
Thread Starter
No beer
LJ
Close, but still no beer. There were no military rigid airship flights after October 1919. R32 was operated by the Admiralty until "technically", but not actually, transferred to the RAF.
The roundel signified intent, not active service with the Royal Air Force. AFAIK R32 flew only post manufacturing trials for and by the Navy up to October 1919. Flight after that date was as part of the Imperial Airship Scheme.
Nice try.
Mike R
Close, but still no beer. There were no military rigid airship flights after October 1919. R32 was operated by the Admiralty until "technically", but not actually, transferred to the RAF.
The roundel signified intent, not active service with the Royal Air Force. AFAIK R32 flew only post manufacturing trials for and by the Navy up to October 1919. Flight after that date was as part of the Imperial Airship Scheme.
Nice try.
Mike R