Airships in the RAF?
Thread Starter
Airships in the RAF?
Something for the weekend sleuth/historian... I tried to get the answer to this in Aviation History http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...ships-raf.html without success so have come here in hope of an expert opinion.
Q? Has the Royal Air Force ever operated an airship?
If yes, why are the no references anywhere to airships in lists of RAF aircraft since 1918?
Why is it important? There is a very large painting of an airship in the RAF Club and I bet a beer that the RAF has never operated one.
Happy hunting.
Mike R
Q? Has the Royal Air Force ever operated an airship?
If yes, why are the no references anywhere to airships in lists of RAF aircraft since 1918?
Why is it important? There is a very large painting of an airship in the RAF Club and I bet a beer that the RAF has never operated one.
Happy hunting.
Mike R
R33 class airship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Should be checkable through the Air Force Medal citation mentioned.
Theakston's XB, please
My Grandparents had a wallet made from the skin of the R38 after it crashed in the Humber - which led to the end of military rigid airships.
.
Should be checkable through the Air Force Medal citation mentioned.
Theakston's XB, please
My Grandparents had a wallet made from the skin of the R38 after it crashed in the Humber - which led to the end of military rigid airships.
.
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 17th Aug 2012 at 15:25.
Ask Pontious Navigator - he's probably got a few hours on them.....
A few minutes delving indicates that airship operation was part RN, part RAF after the formation of the RAF, but Howden and Cardington were RAF stations even though the airships were from the RNAS. But shortly after the R38 prang, interest in the wretched things mercifully waned.
Apart, that is from the periodic efforts of snake-oil salesmen attempting to revive military interest....
A few minutes delving indicates that airship operation was part RN, part RAF after the formation of the RAF, but Howden and Cardington were RAF stations even though the airships were from the RNAS. But shortly after the R38 prang, interest in the wretched things mercifully waned.
Apart, that is from the periodic efforts of snake-oil salesmen attempting to revive military interest....
With further research, it seems the RAF operated them, from RAF airfields. It does also seem that they never 'owned' one.
The various references seem to show all the airships were either on loan from the Admiralty, or subsequently civilian registered.
So, operated - Yes, owned - No.
Real men don't drink half pints, so I leave the beer prize up to your judgement Mike.
The various references seem to show all the airships were either on loan from the Admiralty, or subsequently civilian registered.
So, operated - Yes, owned - No.
Real men don't drink half pints, so I leave the beer prize up to your judgement Mike.
Thread Starter
Easy Beer? Nah.
I'm not convinced...
My guess is the RNAS continued to operate them until the last flight in October 1919. Any airship ops after 1920 were civilian registered. The RAF wanted nothing to do with them and did not take them on charge. Just my opinion of course but, my beer fund says I am probably correct.
The difficulties are that according to some sources the RNAS ceased to exist on 1 April 1918 while airships continued flying until October 1919. However, there are no records (that I can find) that the RAF ever owned or operated an airship.
Flt Lt was also a RNAS rank, so don't be fooled by that.
We are talking Rigid Airships here, not balloons. Apologies for any confusion, I thought you would all look at the other thread on AH&N http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...ships-raf.html.
My guess is the RNAS continued to operate them until the last flight in October 1919. Any airship ops after 1920 were civilian registered. The RAF wanted nothing to do with them and did not take them on charge. Just my opinion of course but, my beer fund says I am probably correct.
The difficulties are that according to some sources the RNAS ceased to exist on 1 April 1918 while airships continued flying until October 1919. However, there are no records (that I can find) that the RAF ever owned or operated an airship.
Flt Lt was also a RNAS rank, so don't be fooled by that.
We are talking Rigid Airships here, not balloons. Apologies for any confusion, I thought you would all look at the other thread on AH&N http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...ships-raf.html.
Last edited by mike rondot; 17th Aug 2012 at 17:04. Reason: Add the word "rigid"
Edward Maitland Maitland appears to have been in charge of the RAF side of things.
E M Maitland_P
He was awarded a Permanent Commission as a Gp Cptn on 1 Aug 19 (Viewing Page 11919 of Issue 31569),
and the AFC on 26 Aug 19 and a DSM by the Yanks on 12 Dec 19.
These medals were presumably for the Atlantic crossings in the R34, on which he was present and Major Scott (RAF) commanded.
The crew list for the Altantic flight lists Maitland as still being in the Army.
(Airshpsonline : Airships : R34 Crewlist)
Therefore we might surmise that the RAF operated the R34 for the Atlantic flight, and operated all the airships after 1 Aug 19, admittedly only for 3 months.
The ownership passing from Admiralty to Civvy reg was presumably the Navy's little power-politics of "you ain't getting any of our ships", which would have set a nasty precedent.
Thoughts?
E M Maitland_P
He was awarded a Permanent Commission as a Gp Cptn on 1 Aug 19 (Viewing Page 11919 of Issue 31569),
and the AFC on 26 Aug 19 and a DSM by the Yanks on 12 Dec 19.
These medals were presumably for the Atlantic crossings in the R34, on which he was present and Major Scott (RAF) commanded.
The crew list for the Altantic flight lists Maitland as still being in the Army.
(Airshpsonline : Airships : R34 Crewlist)
Therefore we might surmise that the RAF operated the R34 for the Atlantic flight, and operated all the airships after 1 Aug 19, admittedly only for 3 months.
The ownership passing from Admiralty to Civvy reg was presumably the Navy's little power-politics of "you ain't getting any of our ships", which would have set a nasty precedent.
Thoughts?
RAF AIRSHIPS
Mike
To quote my 1990 'Illustrated History of the RAF' by Roy Conyers Nesbit.....
The R34 was one of 2 RAF airships, each with a length of 643ft and powered by 5 engines, which entered service in 1919. She was based at Pulham in Norfolk and became notable for the first transatlantic flight made by lighter-than-air craft in July 1919. The R34 was damaged beyond repair after hitting a hill in Jan 1921'.
Regards
Mik the Nav
To quote my 1990 'Illustrated History of the RAF' by Roy Conyers Nesbit.....
The R34 was one of 2 RAF airships, each with a length of 643ft and powered by 5 engines, which entered service in 1919. She was based at Pulham in Norfolk and became notable for the first transatlantic flight made by lighter-than-air craft in July 1919. The R34 was damaged beyond repair after hitting a hill in Jan 1921'.
Regards
Mik the Nav
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Lighter Than Air Road at Cranwell might provide a clue. It leads from Cranwell Avenue northwards through the OMQ patch towards the old airship sheds which were located there but no longer exist!
Foldie
Foldie
Thread Starter
Rigid Airships?
This is the painting in the RAF club that started this question of attribution:
[IMG]
[/IMG]
I'm not sure it has any relevance to the RAF Club because I can't find any evidence that the RAF ever had any rigid airships.
There is no mention of an airship in any of the RAF source books I have looked in. I take Owen Thetford's Aircraft of the Royal Air Force Since 1918 as the bible in these matters but I have not seen his other book British Naval Aircraft Since 1912 . Now, if anyone has a copy of that, maybe the answer lies within.
[IMG]
[/IMG]I'm not sure it has any relevance to the RAF Club because I can't find any evidence that the RAF ever had any rigid airships.
There is no mention of an airship in any of the RAF source books I have looked in. I take Owen Thetford's Aircraft of the Royal Air Force Since 1918 as the bible in these matters but I have not seen his other book British Naval Aircraft Since 1912 . Now, if anyone has a copy of that, maybe the answer lies within.
According to my copy of 'CHRONICLE OF AVIATION'
"England July 13 1919.
A British military airship operated by the RAF, the R.34, today accomplished the first two-way transatlantic air crossing. The outward journey was also the first air crossing of the Atlantic from east to west......
...It berthed at Roosevelt Field, Long Island, the ground crew being directed by an RAF officer who descended from the airship by parachute to take charge. "
They don't make em like that anymore..
"England July 13 1919.
A British military airship operated by the RAF, the R.34, today accomplished the first two-way transatlantic air crossing. The outward journey was also the first air crossing of the Atlantic from east to west......
...It berthed at Roosevelt Field, Long Island, the ground crew being directed by an RAF officer who descended from the airship by parachute to take charge. "
They don't make em like that anymore..
Mike
Have you tried the AHB or PRO? I can recommend the PRO for a day out, but be prepared to get side tracked. All sorts of fascinating rabbit holes for the unwary in there.
I'm sure S** C## at AHB would be happy to help. PM me if you want his work e-mail address.
Have you tried the AHB or PRO? I can recommend the PRO for a day out, but be prepared to get side tracked. All sorts of fascinating rabbit holes for the unwary in there.
I'm sure S** C## at AHB would be happy to help. PM me if you want his work e-mail address.
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I presume the picture is there because the RAF are interested in aviation history before 1918 - in the way the celebrated the centenaries of 1 Sqn etc at the 100 year point from RFC days.
I think the repository of airship history is at the Fleet Air Arm museum at Yeovilton.
I think the repository of airship history is at the Fleet Air Arm museum at Yeovilton.
I know that the R101 was civvy "G" registered but she was flying the RAF Ensign when she crashed (which now hangs in the local church at Carddington). The majority of the senior crew were serving RAF including I believe the skipper and navigator; the R101 was owned by the Govt and I guess it could draw parallels with the civvy reg aircraft the RAF operate these days?
Tragic story the R101 and was a series of high profile airship losses in the 30s, the most famous being Hindenburg. Let's hope we don't learn them all over with the current Hybrid Air Vehilces venture at Cardington these days
LJ
Tragic story the R101 and was a series of high profile airship losses in the 30s, the most famous being Hindenburg. Let's hope we don't learn them all over with the current Hybrid Air Vehilces venture at Cardington these days
LJ
I highly recommend Nevil Shute's autobiography 'Slide Rule'. He was the Chief stress man on the competing R100 (designed by Barnes Wallis for Vickers). The R100 designs had to be submitted for checking by the Govt. The Govt's designs for the R101 were checked by...themselves!
Result: R100 highly successful. R101 crashes on first flight. Govt halts all airships and scraps R100.
Sound familiar??
Result: R100 highly successful. R101 crashes on first flight. Govt halts all airships and scraps R100.
Sound familiar??
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From Airshipsonline : Airships : R34
"The firm of William Beardmore and Company Ltd. of Inchinnan near Glasgow began work on R34 on 9 December 1917 and she was completed just over a year later. Preparations to H.M.A.R34 were completed in December 1918 and her lift and trim trials were carried out successfully on the 20th of that month. By the time R34 was ready for her test flights, the war was over and she was too late to see active service. On 30th December 1918, while bad weather delayed the trial flight, the Admiralty agreed to lend their airships to the Air Ministry for long-distance trials. R34 was specifically mentioned but because of the persistently bad weather it was not until the following March that she left her hangar at lnchinnan, near Glasgow, where the Beardmore Company had their works. "
HMA of course means "His Majesty's Airship" i.e. Navy owned
Reading elsewhere indicates that at least one of the crew on the atlantic crossing was American
As for the parachuting landing crew supervisor - according to British Airship R-34 | R34 Arrival in America he was Major E.M. Pritchard
R34 airship makes first trans-Atlantic return | In-depth | The Engineer
has a couple of anecdotes about the engines - and also about the first ever airborne stowaway
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 24th Aug 2012 at 22:38.