CAA Military Accreditation
Next bone question.
Consider the A2/1 King Air QFI. Under the new system he can only get a FI(A) with restrictions.
He now wishes to become an ME instructor - FI-CRI-ME
My understanding is that to add ME priviliges to your FI rating one needs to hold an unrestricted FI rating.
So does our highly experienced RAF multi engine AFT QFI have to complete 100 hrs of civilian flight instruction including supervising 25 solo flights (under supervision of another FI of course) before he is allowed to complete the training required to add ME to his FI rating?
Would it be easier for him to forget all about an FI rating and just go for a CRI acknowledging that he would be limited in who he could then provide instruction too?
If anyone can confirm or deny I would appreciate it. Likewise if anyone can provide an email for CFS HQ at Cranwell please do - I can't access the intranet from civvy street!
My head hurts.
Consider the A2/1 King Air QFI. Under the new system he can only get a FI(A) with restrictions.
He now wishes to become an ME instructor - FI-CRI-ME
My understanding is that to add ME priviliges to your FI rating one needs to hold an unrestricted FI rating.
So does our highly experienced RAF multi engine AFT QFI have to complete 100 hrs of civilian flight instruction including supervising 25 solo flights (under supervision of another FI of course) before he is allowed to complete the training required to add ME to his FI rating?
Would it be easier for him to forget all about an FI rating and just go for a CRI acknowledging that he would be limited in who he could then provide instruction too?
If anyone can confirm or deny I would appreciate it. Likewise if anyone can provide an email for CFS HQ at Cranwell please do - I can't access the intranet from civvy street!
My head hurts.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 65
Posts: 1,804
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There seem to be no currency requirements in these documents, i.e. exemptions last forever irrespective of the date of the last qualifying flight. Have I missed something?
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: United Kingdon
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone had any joy gaining a PPL(H) using credits from being a SERP (completing DHFS)? What theory exams did you have to take, and what practical training/exams? CAP804 doesn't seem to give a definitive answer, and on enquiring with a couple of schools they seem unaware of the credits. Many thanks!
RL - what course were you on at SY?
If you were (approx) DHFS 120 onwards, it is straightforward. You require your certificates, plus an air law & an RT exam for the ppl, no flying required (though you will be issued with a squirrel rating, which is only useful if you are, perhaps, ex-cavalry in your financial disposition).
If you were before DHFS 120, then you'll need to read LASORS carefully!
If you were (approx) DHFS 120 onwards, it is straightforward. You require your certificates, plus an air law & an RT exam for the ppl, no flying required (though you will be issued with a squirrel rating, which is only useful if you are, perhaps, ex-cavalry in your financial disposition).
If you were before DHFS 120, then you'll need to read LASORS carefully!
Unfortunately, LASORS 2010 is no longer applicable for military accreditation - the defining document is now the infamous Section 4 Part O of CAP 804...
There is no longer any credit from any of the PPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations...
Neither is there any credit from the PPL(H) Skill Test...
Nor is there any exemption from the RTF Practical Test for the FRTOL.
However, if you are a SERP or QMP(H) with a minimum of 10 hours logged as PIC/P1 Capt or PICUS/1st Pilot Non-Capt then you are given full credit as regards the requirement to undergo a training course...
See CAP 804 Section 4 Part O Pages 9-10.
There is no longer any credit from any of the PPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations...
Neither is there any credit from the PPL(H) Skill Test...
Nor is there any exemption from the RTF Practical Test for the FRTOL.
However, if you are a SERP or QMP(H) with a minimum of 10 hours logged as PIC/P1 Capt or PICUS/1st Pilot Non-Capt then you are given full credit as regards the requirement to undergo a training course...
See CAP 804 Section 4 Part O Pages 9-10.
Last edited by BEagle; 8th Sep 2012 at 17:14.
Now therein lies an interesting connundrum, because previously the squirrel course was accredited as a ppl course (i.e. you got a shiny certificate, sent it off to CAA (along with an RT and air law exam) and received your licence in the post.
Are they saying that has changed? Does the new rule-set override the old arrangement? Or is it applicable to people who went through before the course was adjusted to comply with the ppl syllabus?
Are they saying that has changed? Does the new rule-set override the old arrangement? Or is it applicable to people who went through before the course was adjusted to comply with the ppl syllabus?
The new accreditation criteria came into effect on 27 Jul 2012, at which point any previous terms ceased, apart from a few which, for those pilots affected, had a previously agreed timeframe.
The only accreditation unaffected by this absurd €urocratic bu££$hit is that which applies to the NPPL.
The only accreditation unaffected by this absurd €urocratic bu££$hit is that which applies to the NPPL.
Last edited by BEagle; 8th Sep 2012 at 22:14.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: United Kingdon
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all your input, things are a little clearer now!
Not sure if it's too late, but anyone wanting to claim something under the old regime of LASORS may be able to sneak in....
CAP804: Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance | Publications | About the CAA
"IMPORTANT: The CAA has announced a new date for implementation of European Regulations for flight crew licensing in the UK. Therefore any reference to 1 July 2012 should now read as 17 September 2012."
Not sure if it's too late, but anyone wanting to claim something under the old regime of LASORS may be able to sneak in....
CAP804: Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance | Publications | About the CAA
"IMPORTANT: The CAA has announced a new date for implementation of European Regulations for flight crew licensing in the UK. Therefore any reference to 1 July 2012 should now read as 17 September 2012."
Last edited by rogue leader; 11th Sep 2012 at 11:16. Reason: spelling!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: United Kingdon
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More help needed please!
Does anyone know whether I can use hours for check rides/flight tests and IF training as a 'SERP' based on these statements from CAP804 as PIC time for my application for CPL(H):
Section 1 Part E
9 Guide to log annotations
H Student Pilot-in-Command - Pilot acting as pilot-in command during an approved integrated course of training, under the supervision of a flight instructor. The flight instructor shall only observe the student acting as pilot-in-command and shall not control the flight of the aircraft).
J Pilot undergoing any form of flight test with a EASA or CAA Authorised Examiner - PICUS for successful Test P/UT for unsuccessful test (including partial pass).
10.4 Student Pilot-in-Command - A student on a CPL(A)/IR, CPL(H) or ATPL(A)/(H) Integrated Course of flying training may log flight time on instrument training flights as SPIC when flying with an instructor qualified to give instrument flight instruction. The instructor must be the holder of a valid professional licence, instructor rating, instrument rating and IRI privileges. SPIC time shall be credited as pilot-in-command time, unless the flight instructor had reason to control any part of the flight. A ground de-briefing by the flight instructor does not affect the crediting as pilot-in-command.
Also I seem to recall we recorded skids off to skids on times in our log books, so would there be scope for adjusting these hours accordingly based on the following statement from the same section:
7.1 A helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight and the rotor blades are stopped.
Thank you for your help on this!
Does anyone know whether I can use hours for check rides/flight tests and IF training as a 'SERP' based on these statements from CAP804 as PIC time for my application for CPL(H):
Section 1 Part E
9 Guide to log annotations
H Student Pilot-in-Command - Pilot acting as pilot-in command during an approved integrated course of training, under the supervision of a flight instructor. The flight instructor shall only observe the student acting as pilot-in-command and shall not control the flight of the aircraft).
J Pilot undergoing any form of flight test with a EASA or CAA Authorised Examiner - PICUS for successful Test P/UT for unsuccessful test (including partial pass).
10.4 Student Pilot-in-Command - A student on a CPL(A)/IR, CPL(H) or ATPL(A)/(H) Integrated Course of flying training may log flight time on instrument training flights as SPIC when flying with an instructor qualified to give instrument flight instruction. The instructor must be the holder of a valid professional licence, instructor rating, instrument rating and IRI privileges. SPIC time shall be credited as pilot-in-command time, unless the flight instructor had reason to control any part of the flight. A ground de-briefing by the flight instructor does not affect the crediting as pilot-in-command.
Also I seem to recall we recorded skids off to skids on times in our log books, so would there be scope for adjusting these hours accordingly based on the following statement from the same section:
7.1 A helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight and the rotor blades are stopped.
Thank you for your help on this!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: in the mess
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Under the old scheme, you could add 10% taxy time to wheeled helicopters when opening your license. When I then added another (mil) type, this rule was not allowed.
I suggest you call them and clarify the latest situation given your circumstances. When you get the right answer, ask their name and write to them clarifying your conversation. The standardisation amongst the people that work there, and should therefore know the rules, is shocking. I have had one guy confirm all is ok, and on arrival in person with all the agreed documentation, another took great joy in telling me all was not in order. When I quoted the other guy, he apologised and said he was wrong. Cue thirty quids worth of wasted fuel. (I got what I needed eventually though
)
Good luck, especially given that they will still be learning CAP 804...
I suggest you call them and clarify the latest situation given your circumstances. When you get the right answer, ask their name and write to them clarifying your conversation. The standardisation amongst the people that work there, and should therefore know the rules, is shocking. I have had one guy confirm all is ok, and on arrival in person with all the agreed documentation, another took great joy in telling me all was not in order. When I quoted the other guy, he apologised and said he was wrong. Cue thirty quids worth of wasted fuel. (I got what I needed eventually though
)Good luck, especially given that they will still be learning CAP 804...
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rouge leader
Don't waste your breath; the old military accreditation scheme wound up months ago. See this thread, started in 2010, that discussed it all.
BEagle outlined the situation well in his post here. Note the line,
Not sure if it's too late, but anyone wanting to claim something under the old regime of LASORS may be able to sneak in....
BEagle outlined the situation well in his post here. Note the line,
The present QSP scheme and its successor will not be compatible; there will be no ‘mix and match’ between the 2 schemes and any advantages conferred by the QSP scheme must have resulted in licence issue by 7 Apr 12. Beyond that date the successor scheme only will apply, with the exception that advantages conferred by JAR licences already issued (such as ‘frozen’ ATPL credits) will remain.
Last edited by LFFC; 11th Sep 2012 at 21:31.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: United Kingdon
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Update
Finally received my reply from the CAA, so I can confirm:
1. As a SERP you are credited theory study but not exams, and credited flying experience but not skills test towards a PPL(H).
2. Only military hours logged as P1 Capt or 1st Pilot non-Capt can be counted towards the PIC requirement for a CPL(H). Military hours for check rides and flight tests cannot be used.
3. Military hours cannot be adjusted to allow for taxi time to count towards a licence or class/type rating.
If anyone wants me to forward the full response in a PM please let me know. So, back to the study....
1. As a SERP you are credited theory study but not exams, and credited flying experience but not skills test towards a PPL(H).
2. Only military hours logged as P1 Capt or 1st Pilot non-Capt can be counted towards the PIC requirement for a CPL(H). Military hours for check rides and flight tests cannot be used.
3. Military hours cannot be adjusted to allow for taxi time to count towards a licence or class/type rating.
If anyone wants me to forward the full response in a PM please let me know. So, back to the study....
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAF contact?
Good afternoon,
Would anyone be able to PM me the name and telephone number of the RAF liaison side of the MAS?
I have my SRG2133 form all signed off and ready to go but am having a bit of trouble getting my passport copy certified as I can't get to an ATO in person. I just need to ask someone at 22Gp if it's okay for me to get the passport certified by another person of good standing.
I've tried the 22TrgGp-FTFJ1S email but no reply as yet...
Thanks
Would anyone be able to PM me the name and telephone number of the RAF liaison side of the MAS?
I have my SRG2133 form all signed off and ready to go but am having a bit of trouble getting my passport copy certified as I can't get to an ATO in person. I just need to ask someone at 22Gp if it's okay for me to get the passport certified by another person of good standing.
I've tried the 22TrgGp-FTFJ1S email but no reply as yet...
Thanks
See PM.
Probably a bit late in the afternoon to try ringing Shabby Wood right now though....
Probably a bit late in the afternoon to try ringing Shabby Wood right now though....
Last edited by BEagle; 19th Oct 2012 at 13:53.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Age: 41
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Taxi time allowance?
I think the question has already been asked here, but can military pilots still add a taxi-time allowance as per CAA LASORS Section A Appendix B.
I noted the comments about not being allowed to count this time for licensing purposes, but couldn't find any reference in CAP 804 to the difference between the civil and military method of recording hours.
Would be quite disappointed if this has gone, as accounts for approximately 400hrs of flying for me
I noted the comments about not being allowed to count this time for licensing purposes, but couldn't find any reference in CAP 804 to the difference between the civil and military method of recording hours.
Would be quite disappointed if this has gone, as accounts for approximately 400hrs of flying for me
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: in the mess
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Under the old system, I was told the taxi time (for a wheeled helicopter btw, it would not have been applicable to skidded types) was admissible for initial license issue only. Ie. when I subsequently wanted to add another (mil) type, I could not use any taxi time. Not sure of the logic myself. Sorry, I don't know what the new rules say...
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Age: 41
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From LASORS Section A Appendix B:
The system that was decided upon was the
taxi-assessment system. The Service pilot adds a
taxi-time allowance (see table 1 below) to each sector
flown as entered in his Service logbook - the taxi-time
allowance being dependant on the type of sortie flown by
the pilot. The taxi-time allowances built up throughout a
career are then entered into a table (see table 2 below)
to arrive at a total for their career. Prior to leaving the
Services this table should be placed in the pilot’s logbook
and signed by his last Squadron Commander. Please
note that this arrangement cannot be used for CAA
licence issue purposes.
It should be emphasised that when canvassed, most UK
airlines said they were aware of the discrepancy between
the Service and CAA method of recording flying hours,
and took this into account in the recruitment process.
Where this is the case, any hours calculated by the
individual Service pilot in excess of 75 hours should be
taken into account by the individual airline.
The system that was decided upon was the
taxi-assessment system. The Service pilot adds a
taxi-time allowance (see table 1 below) to each sector
flown as entered in his Service logbook - the taxi-time
allowance being dependant on the type of sortie flown by
the pilot. The taxi-time allowances built up throughout a
career are then entered into a table (see table 2 below)
to arrive at a total for their career. Prior to leaving the
Services this table should be placed in the pilot’s logbook
and signed by his last Squadron Commander. Please
note that this arrangement cannot be used for CAA
licence issue purposes.
It should be emphasised that when canvassed, most UK
airlines said they were aware of the discrepancy between
the Service and CAA method of recording flying hours,
and took this into account in the recruitment process.
Where this is the case, any hours calculated by the
individual Service pilot in excess of 75 hours should be
taken into account by the individual airline.