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Army cuts - AAC going?

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Army cuts - AAC going?

Old 6th Jul 2012, 12:15
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Preferred Marys B&B myself
With the compulsory full-English-on-a-dustbin-lid breakfast. Mmm! In those days I was still about 9 and a 1/2 stone soaking wet- Mary used to worry about my diet!

If memory serves, It was Dunne's Farm, but no-one ever referred to it as such.

CG
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 12:26
  #22 (permalink)  

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I'll bet CrabAir almost rubbed their hands with glee at the thought of the end of the AAC believing they'd poach Apache.
Just about sums up xenoliths attitide, hence the bite, nice one WG
Sorry xn mate, it just ain't going to happen and while you're at it, you wont ever be getting the Harrier back either
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 14:20
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Sid, you and the dummy have got a really peevish chip on your shoulder re the RAF; the Apache going to the RAF is a none argument invented to have a snipe at the SHF. To my mind the AH choice should have been the upgraded Cobra as chosen by the US Marines over the Apache. The greater number of cheaper airframes should have gone to the FAA as a carrier bourne asset.

Without the AH the AAC have little to offer as the Lynx and Wildcat can carry jack sh1t; it and the Merlin were nothing more than a job creation scheme for Wastelands.

Given that, how much bayonet strength could have been saved had they got rid of the AAC?
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 16:06
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Sid, you and the dummy have got a really peevish chip on your shoulder re the RAF
No chip. Just think that on the whole, crabs are a bunch of self serving cnuts.

To my mind the AH choice should have been the upgraded Cobra as chosen by the US Marines over the Apache. The greater number of cheaper airframes should have gone to the FAA as a carrier bourne asset.
Have to agree with you there.


Without the AH the AAC have little to offer as the Lynx and Wildcat can carry jack sh1t; it and the Merlin were nothing more than a job creation scheme for Wastelands.
And agree there too....to a certain degree. The Lynx (more specifically the crews) has and is being used as a tac platform, C&C and as fire support as opposed to a 'troop carrier'. This is the bit some SH types cant seem to fathom. 'We exploit the limitations of our equipment and still deliver capability in whatever role is required.'


Given that, how much bayonet strength could have been saved had they got rid of the AAC?
The argument would be similar to that raging re the Merlin going to CHF. 'It'll cost more to give it to the navy!!! etc etc'. Would it?

At a guess, the AAC is cheaper to run than one Puma det to Morocco and it is still seen as value for money.

We currently make up about 1.9% of Army strength. Post 2020 we'll be about 2.4% of the strength so in real terms, we're still growing
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 16:22
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Considering that the Battle of Britain was mainly won by NCO pilots flying Hurricanes (as opposed to the myth of Officers flying Spitfires) and many of the RAF heavy bombers in WW2 were flown by an entire crew of NCOs, past history would indicate that anyone in the RAF who thinks you have to be an officer to be a pilot is either severely deluded or a very senior officer (actually those two are often one and the same in my limited experience) - and that's from a still serving crab!

The all officer thing is a throw back to the age of the "deterrent".

Last edited by Biggus; 6th Jul 2012 at 16:23.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 16:41
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Not so, WG13 Dummy, that some crabs are irked that AAC SNCO pilots do a great job flying and operating the Apache, at least not this (ex-) Brylcreem Boy.

When I was very young (when the Earth was flat and had hair) my Dad used to bounce me on his knee and tell me war stories. He used to wear a natty khaki, hairy, tickly suit, had three odd stripes on his sleeve and wore what looked like a grubby sea gull on his chest, sometimes with dangly, jangly, shiny things. When I was still an ignorant yoof he used to take me to Glider Pilot Regimental Association Meetings and we would visit a Dutch holiday resort called Arnhem. Apparently, during WW2 he had dropped in one day...As I matured the penny dropped, and I developed a profound awe for him and his SNCO colleagues. As a result of the tales of battle, of dirt, of filth, I made it my life's ambition to join the Crabs, where I could work regular hours and sleep in a proper bed. And so it was.

After many years I retired from the jolly life of a SARboy, QHI, and CFS Examiner Ne'erdowell, to find myself working on 660 Sqn DHFS for 11 years. As a result of this latter experience my profound awe developed into a sustained respect and admiration for AAC SNCO pilots, especially as I became very aware of the contribution to Apache ops that was made - and is being made - by SNCO pilots who are, in my experience, a brave and gallant lot.

Even if you are all dirty, filthy and smell of wee.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 16:52
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Xenolith,

I wholeheartedly agree that the Cobra Venom would've been a good AH as it came neck and neck, cheek and cheek, with the Longbow, more so for CHF's purposes. I read in the concluding chapter of Hans Halbertsadt's Army Aviation (Presidio Power series pub.1989) that there were some army aviator debated that maybe they should stick on an extra engine to the Cobras ike their Flying Leatherneck counterparts.

Then again the recent Op Ellamy ops proved the Longbow is a worthy 'feet wet' asset with the UK being the first to use it from the sea. Though read in Air Forces Monthly, last month that the Dutch were starting ship trials with their D models.

Best of luck to 1 or 9 or 19 with the forging ahead who knows maybe in years to come, 9 may get redeployed to Germany if the garrisons are kept there.....

Cheers
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 16:52
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Dummy

No chip. Just think that on the whole, crabs are a bunch of self serving cnuts.
Uncalled for and just plain rude. Based on what you say should I assume that the AAC are a bunch of uncouth louts?

The Lynx (more specifically the crews) has and is being used as a tac platform, C&C and as fire support as opposed to a 'troop carrier'
I’m afraid that my only experience of that is ‘Lynx 5 ‘ in NI; from that perspective your statement is totally without foundation.

The argument would be similar to that raging re the Merlin going to CHF. 'It'll cost more to give it to the navy!!! etc etc'. Would it?
There is bound to be extra cost involved but I have long believed that it is worth it, in the long term, to keep the FAA viable, as they do actually deliver a quantifiable benefit and do it well.

At a guess, the AAC is cheaper to run than one Puma det to Morocco and it is still seen as value for money.
Nonsense! Stop guessing it makes you appear to be crass.

We currently make up about 1.9% of Army strength. Post 2020 we'll be about 2.4% of the strength so in real terms, we're still growing
Perhaps if you considered quality rather than quantity, you may achieve a tad more clarity in your overall view.

Biggus

The RAF are not the only part of the British military that recruit officer only pilots. Apart from that issue your point has merit.

Last edited by xenolith; 6th Jul 2012 at 16:55.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 17:36
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Not uncouth, just straight to the point. Sorry if it offended your Grantham Poly educated fragility...


I’m afraid that my only experience of that is ‘Lynx 5 ‘ in NI; from that perspective your statement is totally without foundation.
Depends what era you witnessed Lynx 5. If it was in the latter stages of Op Banner then your comment is relevant. If was from an earlier period then maybe you were one of the crabs who felt aggrieved at a Sgt Pilot being Mission Commander/Aviation Commander of 2-4 Lynx, Gazelle, Wessex and Puma in South Armagh? Why do you think GOC NI wanted it that way?.....Because he knew his AAC chaps could do the tactical command bit and not just support the blokes on the ground but be an intrinsic part of the operation? Same can be said of current ops.


Nonsense! Stop guessing it makes you appear to be crass.
...clean up in aisle 1.....
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 20:05
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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I quote 'Without the AH the AAC have little to offer.' Of course without an Army Helicopter (AH) the AAC have little to offer.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 20:06
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Ahhh Dum Dum, I fear that as you can offer little more than discourteous rhetoric our discourse is at an end but feel free to have the last word.

That said, if you are still ‘operational’ and due to go into harm’s way anytime soon I wish you a safe journey and speedy return to your loved ones. Little could diminish the respect I hold for what you do.

Lynx effect, well put Just been to happy hour perchance?

Last edited by xenolith; 6th Jul 2012 at 20:13. Reason: just spotted Lynx E's drivel.
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Old 7th Jul 2012, 17:51
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Biggus

The RAF are not the only part of the British military that recruit officer only pilots. Apart from that issue your point has merit.
The RAF are part of a Military?

Every day an education!!
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Old 7th Jul 2012, 19:30
  #33 (permalink)  
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This is precisely the kind of petty squabbling which allows politicians to get away with cuts of this sort. We're supposed to be on the same side.
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Old 7th Jul 2012, 19:41
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Chicken Leg,

Do grow up. Kindly tell all the descendants of the following

List of Victoria Cross recipients of the Royal Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that their illustrious ancestors weren't in the military.....

Don't tell me, it was banter....
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Old 7th Jul 2012, 20:26
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Of course it was banter.
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Old 7th Jul 2012, 21:32
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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At a guess, the AAC is cheaper to run than one Puma det to Morocco and it is still seen as value for money.

We currently make up about 1.9% of Army strength. Post 2020 we'll be about 2.4% of the strength so in real terms, we're still growing
And the AAC accounts for somewhere in the region of half of the Army's operational budget. So do you still think that given the relatively small size of the AAC (based on your figures) that taking up half the budget represents good value?

I'd love to know where the sheer venom and bile that comes from many elements of the Army towards the other service comes from. Given your parochialism and general lack of corporate knowledge of anything outside your own Regiments let alone Arms and Services (that comment from an Army instructor at Shriv) suggests it can't be based on a proper understanding or experience of working with the other services.
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Old 7th Jul 2012, 23:56
  #37 (permalink)  
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I'd love to know where the sheer venom and bile that comes from many elements of the Army towards the other service comes from.
'Venom' and 'bile' are a bit strong aren't they? The Army have always got on well with the RN, they share a very similar 'can do' ethic, during my time this was not so obvious at some levels in the RAF.
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Old 8th Jul 2012, 09:39
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the problem is that everyone thinks they can operate aeroplanes whereas not even the Navy think they can operate tanks........................... (well in their more lucid moments anyway)
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Old 8th Jul 2012, 09:40
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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parabellum,

For I'd say, 75-80% of the Army, yes it probably is a bit strong. But there is a significant number that seem to do nothing other than taking pot shots at the RAF and generally down playing the RAF's contribution. And no, this isn't the RAF being precious or 'crying to mummy'. It's just very tedious. However, if I'm wrong, then the constant failure to learn or want to learn about anything outside of their own Regt, in some extreme cases Bn, as exemplified by some of the comments in this thread and in almost every thread on ARRSe can only be described as venom and bile. Banter is banter, but to come on PPRuNe and describe the RAF as a bunch of self-serving c***s is out of order and frankly deserves such a tag.
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Old 8th Jul 2012, 09:55
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Strangely enough I've never had any complaints from the limbless army lads I, and many of my colleagues, have pulled out under heavy fire. Must be another Air Force he's talking about??

Really very sad that a small minority of AAC undermine the credibility of their organisation with such puerile and ill-informed opinion.
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