Hands off the controls during carrier catapault launches
Thread Starter
I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but I am sure it is somatogravic, not "somosogravic", illusion.
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Tut ! Tut! The Crabs calling the Happy H a RIRB
saw loads of cockies on board and some two legged rats. But never any rodents. But I suppose the FAA boys, are not used to the hotel life, of the RAF
saw loads of cockies on board and some two legged rats. But never any rodents. But I suppose the FAA boys, are not used to the hotel life, of the RAF
Edmund Spencer
“A certain GR 3 pilot never quite got the hang of this during his time on HMS Hermes in the Falklands and ended up clearing his wing at least twice with enormous amounts of instantaneous AOA.
Poor fellow even managed to land in the catwalk!
Never was an RAF officer happier to proceed ashore to Stanley.”
You are wrong and BomberH is absolutely correct. And a Sea Harrier pilot also landed in the catwalk on Hermes -- was he also a “poor fellow”?
You are clearly ill-informed about the facts of life in the South Atlantic in 82. Just remember that this RAF pilot, whose reputation you impugn, was flying the difficult and dangerous Ground Attack and Recce missions throughout the war, rather than the low-risk Air Defence operations in which the Sea Harrier pilots were engaged for most of the time.
“A certain GR 3 pilot never quite got the hang of this during his time on HMS Hermes in the Falklands and ended up clearing his wing at least twice with enormous amounts of instantaneous AOA.
Poor fellow even managed to land in the catwalk!
Never was an RAF officer happier to proceed ashore to Stanley.”
You are wrong and BomberH is absolutely correct. And a Sea Harrier pilot also landed in the catwalk on Hermes -- was he also a “poor fellow”?
You are clearly ill-informed about the facts of life in the South Atlantic in 82. Just remember that this RAF pilot, whose reputation you impugn, was flying the difficult and dangerous Ground Attack and Recce missions throughout the war, rather than the low-risk Air Defence operations in which the Sea Harrier pilots were engaged for most of the time.
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Surely this is all just banter? No one, but no one is suggesting ANY pilot was incompetent, excreta happens, mistakes are made, this was a time of high level stress and far better to laugh in the face of adversity..
I guess my military sense of humour is from the homophobic 60's (not blooming 50's.... cheek) and I just took this as the usual inter service banter? Picking on Fleet Air Arm appears okay, but woe betide ANYONE that dares to throw a little bit of banter in the opposite direction.
ALL pilots that served in that conflict were a credit to their uniform which was NOT any shade of blue... It was a tatty shade of green
I guess my military sense of humour is from the homophobic 60's (not blooming 50's.... cheek) and I just took this as the usual inter service banter? Picking on Fleet Air Arm appears okay, but woe betide ANYONE that dares to throw a little bit of banter in the opposite direction.
ALL pilots that served in that conflict were a credit to their uniform which was NOT any shade of blue... It was a tatty shade of green
Forgive the slight thread creep but the sea harrier launch off the ski jump needed careful stick handling. The trim and nozzle angle was calculated for the conditions and AUW etc and usually resulted in a launch with no pitch input required until the acceleration mode.
This was completely different from the land based take off where a large back stick movement was needed at nozzle rotation to avoid bashing the nose!
This was completely different from the land based take off where a large back stick movement was needed at nozzle rotation to avoid bashing the nose!
Returning closer to the original question (but still not back to the catapult) there was an interesting film of early trials of the Harrier from a flat deck. The camera was positioned near the rear of the superstructure, giving an oblique rear view of the takeoff. The aircraft lifted off in the normal Harrier manner, with combined lift and downward-vectored thrust keeping it airborne. As it left the end of the deck, the thrust ceased to impinge on the surface, and the aircraft sank. The pilot reacted by raising the nose, the changing attitude being apparent as the aircraft disappeared from sight in front of the bow. On film, a series of heads appeared from right of shot trying to see what was happening, before the jet accelerated and climbed back into view.
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I was hoping to hear from ex Vixen, Buccaneer or Phantom pilots as my memory is not what it was as an outsider looking in...
I am sure I can recall the pilot acknowledging the Flight Deck Officer with a salute but then I cannot recall if the hand went out of sight... We know the procedure for US pilots and going back to that last remark by the previous poster... The Vixen would regularly disappear below deck level and then immediately re-appear with its pedal to the metal.... Every launch would see an expensive wire strop being donated to Davy Jones Locker
Flight deck operations on a conventional carrier was a sight to behold and those that think they could simply hop aboard a carrier for a few weeks of flying are with the very greatest of respect simply talking a good fight.....
I am sure I can recall the pilot acknowledging the Flight Deck Officer with a salute but then I cannot recall if the hand went out of sight... We know the procedure for US pilots and going back to that last remark by the previous poster... The Vixen would regularly disappear below deck level and then immediately re-appear with its pedal to the metal.... Every launch would see an expensive wire strop being donated to Davy Jones Locker
Flight deck operations on a conventional carrier was a sight to behold and those that think they could simply hop aboard a carrier for a few weeks of flying are with the very greatest of respect simply talking a good fight.....
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Seem to remember most of our Buccaneer pilots on the Cats ...... tapped both hands on top of there white helmets twice and then placed the palm of the right gloved hand on the side of the perspex... before the FDO lowered his green flag.... isc
Last edited by david parry; 6th Jul 2012 at 16:18.
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F4 pilots saluted the FDO, got his nod, then put their hand back on the stick. White cape leather gloves were often retained for better visibility from the FDO's perspective.
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BomberH
Been offline for a long time.
I meant absolutely no offence. The RAF No 1 Sqn were the most incredibly courageous fellows.
You guys were flying around at low level against capable ground to air fire and I have the utmost respect for what you achieved.
I remember small things like Jerry Pook storming down the deck, when I was in the cockpit at alert five in my sea harrier, absolutely refusing the attention of the very worried medical people after he had ejected from his harrier due fuel loss to ground fire.
I remember McCloud describing the 20mm shell that hit him squarely on his front windshield and actually cracked it. (Right between his eyes.)
I remember the awful worry when we thought we had lost Glover. And worst still when we had strafed a helicopter which could have contained him.
I remember the amazing, was it Styvesen, who ejected and was prepared to fend off the enemy with his 9mm. Turned out they were sheep! We were so incredibly happy to get him back.
Bomber, in the Fleet Air Arm it is usually a bit of a jape if you land in the catwalk or have a misdemeanour on landing. Everybody understands that operating off the flight deck is incredibly demanding. You guys in the Falklands had to try to get your GR3s to work on a moving platform!! You did spectacularly well and will always deserve the huge respect of your fleet air arm counterparts.
My comment was just something we would have a beer about in the bar.
I profusely apologise if you took it otherwise.
ES
Been offline for a long time.
I meant absolutely no offence. The RAF No 1 Sqn were the most incredibly courageous fellows.
You guys were flying around at low level against capable ground to air fire and I have the utmost respect for what you achieved.
I remember small things like Jerry Pook storming down the deck, when I was in the cockpit at alert five in my sea harrier, absolutely refusing the attention of the very worried medical people after he had ejected from his harrier due fuel loss to ground fire.
I remember McCloud describing the 20mm shell that hit him squarely on his front windshield and actually cracked it. (Right between his eyes.)
I remember the awful worry when we thought we had lost Glover. And worst still when we had strafed a helicopter which could have contained him.
I remember the amazing, was it Styvesen, who ejected and was prepared to fend off the enemy with his 9mm. Turned out they were sheep! We were so incredibly happy to get him back.
Bomber, in the Fleet Air Arm it is usually a bit of a jape if you land in the catwalk or have a misdemeanour on landing. Everybody understands that operating off the flight deck is incredibly demanding. You guys in the Falklands had to try to get your GR3s to work on a moving platform!! You did spectacularly well and will always deserve the huge respect of your fleet air arm counterparts.
My comment was just something we would have a beer about in the bar.
I profusely apologise if you took it otherwise.
ES
IIRC correctly (and slightly back on thread) the Sea Harrier FRS1 (or may have been the Indian FRS51) had a retractable lanyard in the instrument panel that clipped to the control column and released via a simple trigger.
Stick held back against this during take off (I havent a clue what mode of take off!) and then I assume released once in the air.
..I don't think I imagined it!
Stick held back against this during take off (I havent a clue what mode of take off!) and then I assume released once in the air.
..I don't think I imagined it!
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carrier dangley bits
Sorry if I am too technical, but on the W2 carriers there are many crane like things hanging over the side.
What are they, and are they on modern carriers too.
Thanks
Glf
What are they, and are they on modern carriers too.
Thanks
Glf
Suspicion breeds confidence
They were there to allow aircraft to be stowed partially off the flight deck without it falling off. The idea being that the wheels/cockpit/engine was on the deck and the tail secured to a mooring hanging over the side.
HF radio masts. Still have HF but implemented in a less demanding way.
Just seen Navaleye's last. Spotting outriggers also a possibility depending on what you're looking at.
Just seen Navaleye's last. Spotting outriggers also a possibility depending on what you're looking at.
Last edited by Not_a_boffin; 18th Sep 2013 at 15:22.
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outriggers for sure
Too many and looked like cranes, so an overboard support would be logical.
Bit frightening but possible solution to limited deck space.
Glf
Bit frightening but possible solution to limited deck space.
Glf
622
I dont know about the Sea Harrier but the RN Phantom FG Mk 1 aircraft had a similar lanyard which attached to the rear of the stick. I think it was called the Stick Positioning Device and contained a console mounted friction clutch/brake which could if necessary be over-ridden by pulling harder on the stick. I can't remember how it retracted, possibly with a tensator type spring inside the body. I don't think the aircraft was launched hands off, the SPD just took some of the load and reduced the risk of inadvertantly pulling back on the stick as the catapult fired.
It was made by what was then HSA Brough. As a young graduate apprentice working in Mechanical Test I did a lot of the endurance testing which involved sitting in a chair, attaching the lanyard to the rear of the stick, setting the position, pulling the stick to override the brake, rewinding the lanyard, over and over. I think I had to check the breakout load every hundred operations. It probably would not be allowed nowadays in case the tester suffered a repetitive strain injury. Back in 1970 it wasn't an issue.
Walbut
I dont know about the Sea Harrier but the RN Phantom FG Mk 1 aircraft had a similar lanyard which attached to the rear of the stick. I think it was called the Stick Positioning Device and contained a console mounted friction clutch/brake which could if necessary be over-ridden by pulling harder on the stick. I can't remember how it retracted, possibly with a tensator type spring inside the body. I don't think the aircraft was launched hands off, the SPD just took some of the load and reduced the risk of inadvertantly pulling back on the stick as the catapult fired.
It was made by what was then HSA Brough. As a young graduate apprentice working in Mechanical Test I did a lot of the endurance testing which involved sitting in a chair, attaching the lanyard to the rear of the stick, setting the position, pulling the stick to override the brake, rewinding the lanyard, over and over. I think I had to check the breakout load every hundred operations. It probably would not be allowed nowadays in case the tester suffered a repetitive strain injury. Back in 1970 it wasn't an issue.
Walbut
Last edited by walbut; 18th Sep 2013 at 16:55.