Turkish F4 "Vanishes"
I hold no brief for the Syrian regime, which is appalling: like the Saudi regime; like the Bahreini regime - add your own examples, they aren't exactly in short supply even within the limited area which we refer to as the Middle East. However this particular conflict has some very murky facets. My own opinion, which I won't attempt to enlarge on, is that it's a key component of the current undeclared war on Iran and in that respect the people of Syria's desire for representative government is being cynically manipulated.
I have every sympathy for the lost Turkish pilots and those close to them - they were, after all, only doing what they were obliged to do as service personnel. It's hard to know exactly what happened in terms of international law, however let's give Turkey the benefit of the doubt and assume that their aircraft at no time violated Syrian airspace and that there was no provocative intent.
It's worth pointing out that despite this proviso Turkey itself is unquestionably engaging in aggression against Syria by allowing its territory to be used for the insertion of arms into Syria on behalf of the various anti-government factions. The plural is significant here because those wishing to see the overthrow of the Assad regime should be careful what they wish for. As if this mistake hasn't been made so often recently that we haven't been warned.
We have short memories. In February 1982 the Syrian government suppressed a revolt by the Muslim Brotherhood based on the town of Hama. This operation, which barely raised a squeak of protest from Western governments, entailed razing a large area of the city, quite literally, to the ground. The massacre has been variously estimated to number between 10,000 and 40,000 men, women and children. The higher figure accords with what the Syrian officer in charge of the operation, President Hafez al Assad's brother Rifaat al Assad (uncle of the present incumbent Bashar al Assad) has himself estimated. And he should know.
So where is this mass murderer now? Why, living in the lap of luxury in London! Where else?
Whilst they're searching for the fundamental particles of the universe at CERN, they should keep an eye out for the Hypocrisy Particle, it seems to be a fundamental component of the world we live in.
Roy
I have every sympathy for the lost Turkish pilots and those close to them - they were, after all, only doing what they were obliged to do as service personnel. It's hard to know exactly what happened in terms of international law, however let's give Turkey the benefit of the doubt and assume that their aircraft at no time violated Syrian airspace and that there was no provocative intent.
It's worth pointing out that despite this proviso Turkey itself is unquestionably engaging in aggression against Syria by allowing its territory to be used for the insertion of arms into Syria on behalf of the various anti-government factions. The plural is significant here because those wishing to see the overthrow of the Assad regime should be careful what they wish for. As if this mistake hasn't been made so often recently that we haven't been warned.
We have short memories. In February 1982 the Syrian government suppressed a revolt by the Muslim Brotherhood based on the town of Hama. This operation, which barely raised a squeak of protest from Western governments, entailed razing a large area of the city, quite literally, to the ground. The massacre has been variously estimated to number between 10,000 and 40,000 men, women and children. The higher figure accords with what the Syrian officer in charge of the operation, President Hafez al Assad's brother Rifaat al Assad (uncle of the present incumbent Bashar al Assad) has himself estimated. And he should know.
So where is this mass murderer now? Why, living in the lap of luxury in London! Where else?
Whilst they're searching for the fundamental particles of the universe at CERN, they should keep an eye out for the Hypocrisy Particle, it seems to be a fundamental component of the world we live in.
Roy
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"Hypocrisy Particle"
The one that is split between the perm members of the security council
and the UN, destined never to come together or be aligned in the
one place at the one time.
.
The one that is split between the perm members of the security council
and the UN, destined never to come together or be aligned in the
one place at the one time.
.
skridlov: I have a hard time agreeing with you on the violation issue IF (and I do mean IF) the 8.4 nm figure is correct.
Territorial limit is 12 nm.
Territorial limit is 12 nm.
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Keep in mind that just because the aircraft was found at 8.4nm out doesn't mean that is where it was when it got hit. However, since the pilots didn't report any problems or incoming and did not eject, the possibility of them getting hit and trying to control the plane in radio silence and riding it all the way down (and into Syrian airspace) and not ejecting seems quite far off. We'll know more details (or at least some things that someone wants John Q. Public to know) once the larger parts of the wreckage are brought up off the sea floor.
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Keep in mind that just because the aircraft was found at 8.4nm out doesn't mean that is where it was when it got hit. However, since the pilots didn't report any problems or incoming and did not eject, the possibility of them getting hit and trying to control the plane in radio silence and riding it all the way down (and into Syrian airspace) and not ejecting seems quite far off. We'll know more details (or at least some things that someone wants John Q. Public to know) once the larger parts of the wreckage are brought up off the sea floor.
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Surely the only snippet that might be accurate is where the wreckage is located?? Do we know there was no communications from the F4? do we know the mission the aircraft was on, its route, its brief?
Not sure if this is still the official position but it used to be a week ago: Unarmed recon aircraft on training run, strays into Syrian airspace, warned by base to return to Turkish airspace, does so and communication is lost completely.
By the way, autopsies on both pilots show cause of death to be extreme trauma from the aircraft impacting the water at high speed with no signs of any shrapnel on their bodies or any wound suffered from a potential ground-to-air or air-to-air attack.
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It is awkward discussing an incident if folks have passionate views on the topic but if someone threatens you with a gun, do you assume it is not loaded?
If an unauthorised military aircraft invades or accidentally flies into our airspace when our country is at a high state of security alert, then do we assume it is unarmed and has no hostile intent? Is there any way we can tell it is unarmed? Bank robbers get shot when they wave around toy guns.....
Unfortunately for Turkey their aircraft entered the airspace of a nation that is having major internal problems and that aircraft was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Brave men lost their lives . Respect
If an unauthorised military aircraft invades or accidentally flies into our airspace when our country is at a high state of security alert, then do we assume it is unarmed and has no hostile intent? Is there any way we can tell it is unarmed? Bank robbers get shot when they wave around toy guns.....
Unfortunately for Turkey their aircraft entered the airspace of a nation that is having major internal problems and that aircraft was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Brave men lost their lives . Respect
Unarmed recon aircraft on training run, strays into Syrian airspace, warned by base to return to Turkish airspace, does so and communication is lost completely
1142 : RF4 enters Syrian airspace (hdg NE-ish I think) at 200'.
1144 : Turkish Radar alerts RF4 to the airspace incursion.
1147 : RF4 exits Syrian airspace at an unknown height.
1150 : RF4 requests to refly the profile and asks for positive radar control from Turkish Radar to avoid border incursion again. Profile then appears to be flown on a reciprocal hdg to that previously flown at 1142..
1158 : Last point of contact.
The slides, provided by the Turkish military, states the RF4 was hit 13 nm off the Syrian coast, then turned toward Syria and crashed 8.4 nm from the coastline.
The slides are in English, the commentary in Turkish (I don't think the commentary adds much more than translation but I leave it to a better linguist than me!!).
