Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Turkish F4 "Vanishes"

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Turkish F4 "Vanishes"

Old 22nd Jun 2012, 23:57
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Up the road a ways, yonder
Age: 50
Posts: 29
Aye... I sometimes wonder why Britain & France didn't declare war on the Soviet Union for invading Poland the same day as that Hitler chap.


Then I think... 'cos they didn't want to and get on with whatever I'm supposed to be doing.

Or you could say that the Turks responded decisively by being a tad put out and making some bellicose statements about the Israelis. Which is more than they've actually done about the Syrians so far... So let's all look on with interest.
frg7700 is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 08:29
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Munich, Bavaria
Posts: 39
nah, I am with you. I prefer a solution, where the Turks take a Syrian excuse, maybe bash them verbally, as long as the incident really happened in international airspace and not over Syria.

I would not plan military missions in vicinity of an unstable country without need...
Midnight Blue is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 08:38
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: England
Posts: 538
Turkey is now admitting the incursion, or at least saying that the F-4 may have "strayed".

Given that the Turks are not denying Syrian claims that it was downed 1km from the coast, I don't think they've got a leg to stand on.

Beeb: linky

Last edited by Ewan Whosearmy; 23rd Jun 2012 at 08:39.
Ewan Whosearmy is online now  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 08:51
  #24 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,716
Given that the Turks are not denying Syrian claims that it was downed 1km from the coast, I don't think they've got a leg to stand on.
That depends. If you wanted an incident which would push them into declaring humanitarian corridors into northern Syria and a No-Fly Zone - with Syrian air defences being suppressed, you might just have seen it.

Turkey is increasingly looking east and wants to be seen as the dominant Islamic nation in the region. That sets up a confrontation between Iran as the main Shia nation and Turkey as the Sunni, the civil war (and it is now a civil war) in Syria as a proxy.

Ah, you might say, buy isn't Iran about to become a nuclear power? To which I'd say watch this space. I'm sure Turkey can talk nicely to Islamabad about technology, as for the rest....

Turkey aims to increase ballistic missile ranges

Nuclear Plant is a Must for Sustainable Energy in Turkey

.......Turkey had announced plans to build three nuclear power plants with a total of at least 12 units by the year 2023. Turkey had already sealed a deal with Russia's nuclear engineering company Atomstroyexport, which will build the country's first nuclear power plant in the Mediterranean port of Mersin in the Akkuyu area.

Last edited by ORAC; 23rd Jun 2012 at 09:02.
ORAC is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 08:57
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Great Britain
Age: 54
Posts: 284
If schwacking jets because you're in someone's airspace in a military jet is de rigeur and the Russians seem OK with it - can we schwack the next BEAR, BLACKJACK or BACKFIRE that intrudes our airspace?

I would hope that this event recieves full International condemnation and that the UN Security Council and NATO lend it their full atttention.

Clott

Last edited by Corporal Clott; 23rd Jun 2012 at 08:59.
Corporal Clott is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 09:01
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: London/Oxford/New York
Posts: 2,386
Corporal Clott,


No, because they don't ever enter our airspace. They are flying in international airspace over international waters when they are shadowed by the RAF and NATO.
pr00ne is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 09:04
  #27 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,716
Radar tapes from Olympus should be receiving a great amount of interest.
ORAC is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 10:32
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: FL400
Posts: 398
The Turkish President said: "It is routine for jet fighters to sometimes fly in and out over (national) borders ... when you consider their speed over the sea," Mr Gul told the Anatolia news agency. "These are not ill-intentioned things but happen beyond control due to the jets' speed."

Could anyone with a knowledge of air defence comment on this? My understanding (admittedly from a naval/now civvy) standpoint is that diplomatic clearance is very definitely needed for any military asset to enter the air or sea space of a foreign country. Am I wrong?
Al Murdoch is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 11:47
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: .
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by Fox3WheresMyBanana
Never assume dictatorships are going to do things which would be sensible to us. They are on completely different agendas.

Who'd be the AD Commander? Probably in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario.
Maybe you're right. A more sensible action such as scrambling interceptors to check things out might not be their cup of tea.

Originally Posted by Al Murdoch
Could anyone with a knowledge of air defence comment on this? My understanding (admittedly from a naval/now civvy) standpoint is that diplomatic clearance is very definitely needed for any military asset to enter the air or sea space of a foreign country. Am I wrong?
Didn't quite follow the Turkish President on this one myself. An incursion is an incursion, isn't it?

Last edited by LS-4; 23rd Jun 2012 at 11:48.
LS-4 is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 12:09
  #30 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,716
Didn't quite follow the Turkish President on this one myself. An incursion is an incursion, isn't it?
I believe the point was that airspace infringements happen - but usually result in a diplomatic protest, not the engagement and destruction of the aircraft and the death of the crew.

However, most don't occur when both sides have withdrawn their ambassadors, there is firing across the border and one is publicly admitting to hosting and supporting a rebel army conducting incursions into the other.

As for the region, I can remember discussing such matters with an Iranian colonel back in 1976 during a CENTO TACEVAL in Turkey shortly after the USAF lost a C130, rumoured to have been lured across a border using meaconing. Do you have any problems when aircraft cross the USSR/Iranian border?

"No", he replied, "If they cross we shoot them down, and if we cross they shoot us down. We both know where we stand".

Last edited by ORAC; 23rd Jun 2012 at 12:37.
ORAC is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 12:15
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: oxford
Posts: 469
Could anyone with a knowledge of air defence comment on this? My understanding (admittedly from a naval/now civvy) standpoint is that diplomatic clearance is very definitely needed for any military asset to enter the air or sea space of a foreign country. Am I wrong?
You need dip clearance if you fly within either 12 nm of land, even a tiny island somewhere in the middle of an ocean, 12 mile avoid without clearance.
lj101 is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 12:18
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: .
Posts: 63
I believe the point was that airspace infringements happen - but usually result in a diplomatic protest, not the engagement and destruction of the aircraft and the death of the crew.
I would agree, but apparently he said that it's "routine." I'm just a civvy flier, but in terms of air law there aren't any exceptions for military fast jets, are there? Situational awareness, proper clearance, ATS FPL etc. goes for everybody, right? Stupid questions, maybe, but still.. Statements from both governments puzzle me.

As for the region
Cultural differences have crossed my mind as well.

Last edited by LS-4; 23rd Jun 2012 at 13:02.
LS-4 is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 13:09
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: S England
Age: 51
Posts: 319
I'm wondering.......

Syria has just escalated violence against a NATO member. Could the West (NATO) now go and give the troublesome irks a good shoeing without a UN mandate?? Now that really would pi55 the Commies off!

Last edited by Chicken Leg; 24th Jun 2012 at 10:00.
Chicken Leg is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 13:44
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: .
Posts: 63
I could be mistaken as I know little about the state of things, but I really doubt it. Syria remains a difficult case with all that sectarian stuff, possible shady groups amidst the mess on the ground, regional factors etc.
LS-4 is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 14:16
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 64
Posts: 1,809
Cool

Hi,

[Updated] Turkish RF-4E Phantom shot down by Syrian Air Defense battery. Known and unknown facts. « The Aviationist
jcjeant is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 14:36
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: .
Posts: 63
I guess we'll just have to wait and see about all this. Not unexpectedly, rumours are flying.

And let's not forget about the crew.
LS-4 is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 14:57
  #37 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,716
ISTANBUL - Hürriyet Daily News: Ankara tries to manage crisis with Syria over plane

Ankara has been trying to resolve the crisis which was started by the shooting down of a Turkish F-4 reconnaissance jet by Syrian air defense in Syrian air space over the Mediterranean on June 22.

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu chaired a crisis management meeting at his ministry on June 23 in Ankara which the deputy chief of Turkish General Staff, Gen. Hulusi Akar, and head of the Turkish National Intelligence Organization (MİT) Hakan Fidan also attended. That was the second in a row in the last 24 hours. The first one, chaired by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and attended by Gen. Necdet Özel, Davutoğlu and other top government officials was held last night following the incident after which Turkey confirmed that the F-4 had been downed by Syria and two Air Force pilots were missing.

By that time Damascus had already announced that it was they who shot the plane with Russian-made anti-aircraft batteries and later on they understood that it was Turkish. This is understandable since the Bashar al-Assad regime is in big trouble inside because of the civil war and outside it has been vulnerable to Israeli attacks a number of times before; Turkey and Israel use similar types of American-made war planes.

The Turkish reconnaissance plane, which took off from Malatya air base (where recently a NATO radar was based as a part of the Missile Shield System), seemed to be on an intelligence mission in the east Mediterranean. President Abdullah Gül on June 23 said the Turkish plane might have violated Syrian air space by mistake because of its high speed. That is why Turkey is trying not to escalate the scandal by making a statement blaming Syria and not immediately calling NATO for joint action.

The opposition parties are well aware of that. Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu, the leader of the main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) has said there were a number of questions to ask to the government but Turkey should act in calm and try to solve the crisis through diplomatic means.

The incident has put Turkish foreign policy regarding Syria in additional difficulty. Turkey has been actively taking part in supporting the Syrian opposition in their struggle to depose the al-Assad regime. Turkey has been hosting more than 35,000 refugees from Syria including 12 army officers of brigadier general and higher ranks; they are in contact with the Syrian National Council and Free Syrian Army, both having central missions in Turkey.

Following Saturday’s meeting at the Foreign Ministry a third meeting was called by Erdoğan in order to find the proper move to make regarding the incident; one of the most difficult decisions to take in recent years.
ORAC is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 17:12
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: No longer welcome status
Posts: 2
Seems like Syria decided to stop Turkish recon missions directly...........

Doubt Turkey will want NATO involved when shown it was in the wrong, suggest this will die down very quickly as an incident as neither side have much to gain.
racedo is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 17:32
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,897
Do jets routinely violate other nation's airspace?
Well, not accidentally.
We weren't allowed within 5 miles of a Soviet warship during the Cold War, so 100 ft over the foredeck would be unthinkable

I doubt very much a Turkish recce crew would be just off the coast without knowing it, especially as this is a routine run for them.

Possible scenario: The Syrians thought it was the Israelis. Remember the reactor raid in 2007 (Operation Orchard)? The Israelis came over Turkey then.

Anyway, the Turks (and the Rest of the World) now know the Syrian readiness state!

Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 23rd Jun 2012 at 17:34.
Fox3WheresMyBanana is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2012, 19:34
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: .
Posts: 63
We weren't allowed within 5 miles of a Soviet warship during the Cold War, so 100 ft over the foredeck would be unthinkable
And blaming it on an NDB or something would have been out of the question?

Last edited by LS-4; 23rd Jun 2012 at 19:34.
LS-4 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.