Prince William and the RAF
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Prince William and the RAF
Just as a matter of interest given William has apparently got to make a choice on his future, just what is the usual progression from Pilot Officer to Sqn Ldr these days? Is there still a staff course component for promotion from Flt Lt to Sqn Ldr?
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: On the Bay, Vic, Oz
Age: 80
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not what you know, it's who you know. As he seems to have all the right connections then he will probably go straight to Air rank skipping more than a few. In truth think he's one of the good guys, but family is family and you have to look after your own. 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Why oh why would I wanna be anywhere else?
Posts: 1,305
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Cheap shot alison. And don't forget that, as a currently serving member, he's probably on here reading (and maybe contributing) so remember "do as you would be done by".
And I second Phil's comment: he'll do fine on his own abilities.
And I second Phil's comment: he'll do fine on his own abilities.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: England
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many times does this anti-prince sniping have to return to these forums?
Both William and Harry are, from what I can see, doing a decent job of work for their country - which is more than could possibly be said of some.
Some people have a higher standing in society than others. Some are elected and some are born into it through no fault of their own. Try to get over it before it consumes your everyday thoughts and you develop a chip on both shoulders.
Both William and Harry are, from what I can see, doing a decent job of work for their country - which is more than could possibly be said of some.
Some people have a higher standing in society than others. Some are elected and some are born into it through no fault of their own. Try to get over it before it consumes your everyday thoughts and you develop a chip on both shoulders.
Again, I echo the above comments. PPruners generally don't discuss serving military personnel and I think that the Princes should be no exception. It is clear that both of them got to their current appointments through a combination of aptitude and hard work and it is also clear that they both try 'to do the Right thing'. So we may see Prince William at Swindon Poly (sorry, Defence Academy) to do the ICSC or what ever it's called now. But if I had had family connections, I would have exploited them to avoid the course!
Both William and Harry are, from what I can see, doing a decent job of work for their country - which is more than could possibly be said of some.
)They both have a lifetime of service to their country ahead of them, whether they like it or not, most of us have/had a choice as to when we pull/pulled the pin.
P1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many times does this anti-prince sniping have to return to these forums?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Samuel, people obviously don't know who you are or where you are.
Around 1975 the RAF abandoned the last of its promotion exams. Promotion to fg off had been automatic for many years. In the late 60s the B for promotion to flt lt was abolished along with the permanent fg off (B-failed). Then the C was also abandoned to be replaced, for aircrew, with satisfactory flying proficient reports every year. Our old nav plotter actually failed his check as a sqn ldr flt cdr and immediately lost his flying cat. He later remustered to a ground branch. I don't know how ground officers were assessed.
Typically a flt lt will be in the bracket for promotion after 4 years in the rank with 5 the most usual. For aircrew this would be towards the end of his 2nd or 3rd flying tour depending on whether he was a graduate or direct entry.
He would be expected to do a junior staff course and also to embark on an individual staff studies course. To be an effective sqn ldr you do need to do courses. Promotion to wg cdr would follow perhaps 4-5 years later for a fast mover.
Once a Royal personnage had left active service promotion would follow at the normal promotion points until as King you top out at MRAF.
Around 1975 the RAF abandoned the last of its promotion exams. Promotion to fg off had been automatic for many years. In the late 60s the B for promotion to flt lt was abolished along with the permanent fg off (B-failed). Then the C was also abandoned to be replaced, for aircrew, with satisfactory flying proficient reports every year. Our old nav plotter actually failed his check as a sqn ldr flt cdr and immediately lost his flying cat. He later remustered to a ground branch. I don't know how ground officers were assessed.
Typically a flt lt will be in the bracket for promotion after 4 years in the rank with 5 the most usual. For aircrew this would be towards the end of his 2nd or 3rd flying tour depending on whether he was a graduate or direct entry.
He would be expected to do a junior staff course and also to embark on an individual staff studies course. To be an effective sqn ldr you do need to do courses. Promotion to wg cdr would follow perhaps 4-5 years later for a fast mover.
Once a Royal personnage had left active service promotion would follow at the normal promotion points until as King you top out at MRAF.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 7th May 2012 at 21:16.
My opening post was mere curiosity and not about William per se!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,756
Received 2,742 Likes
on
1,168 Posts
I personally think they are doing a good job and good on them, it will be giving them a grounding in life they will not get elsewhere and is probably the only time in their lives they will get a sense of "Normality", if that is what you can call it.
If only all MP's were required to spend time in the workplace before entering their chosen professions, the Country would be a better place than it is today.
If only all MP's were required to spend time in the workplace before entering their chosen professions, the Country would be a better place than it is today.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I read a piece in a broadsheet about Charles wanting promotion to Group Captain in the late 80s. The RAF agreed, but only after the first of his Cranwell contemporaries achieved the rank through merit.
.. not sure how true (to convention?) that is.
.. not sure how true (to convention?) that is.
The RAF agreed, but only after the first of his Cranwell contemporaries achieved the rank through merit.
Sounds about right, Al R - this parallels what the Royal Navy did, promoting the Prince of Wales more or less in time with the same officer who was carefully put in command of another MCMV in the same squadron as BRONINGTON,as the latter progressed up the Navy List to Rear Admiral. When I say "carefully", they chose the other guy very carefully indeed, not least by choosing someone junior to Charles as a Lieutenant so that they could say that Charles had not had preferential treatment by being given undue early command ......
Jack
Sounds about right, Al R - this parallels what the Royal Navy did, promoting the Prince of Wales more or less in time with the same officer who was carefully put in command of another MCMV in the same squadron as BRONINGTON,as the latter progressed up the Navy List to Rear Admiral. When I say "carefully", they chose the other guy very carefully indeed, not least by choosing someone junior to Charles as a Lieutenant so that they could say that Charles had not had preferential treatment by being given undue early command ......
Jack
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
. I'm not a sycophantic cap doffing lick-spittle, but William and Harry have turned into a couple of men we should be proud of. Harry's speech last night in the US shows a degree of sensitivity, empathy and maturity that you'd be hard pressed to find in a half full Members bar on any given night in Westminster.
Registered User **
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Botswana & Greece
Age: 68
Posts: 940
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The suitability of ones wife always used to be an important factor when assessed for promotion. I don't think there is a problem there
P.Nav please do not bring up the subject of ISS before I have had at least a breakfast beer. The AOC once asked me how I had managed to get promoted without even starting this ridiculous time consuming course (not his words). I asked him if he wanted the truth. He replied in the affirmative. I explained that it just required a tick to be placed in the correct box on my flight commander's 'chaps qualifications' board on his office wall.
I forget the reply.
P.Nav please do not bring up the subject of ISS before I have had at least a breakfast beer. The AOC once asked me how I had managed to get promoted without even starting this ridiculous time consuming course (not his words). I asked him if he wanted the truth. He replied in the affirmative. I explained that it just required a tick to be placed in the correct box on my flight commander's 'chaps qualifications' board on his office wall.
I forget the reply.
Samuel, Beagle et al,
Perhaps I am one of the last serving officers still with B and C exam qualifications - still duly filled out on the front of my OJAR (F1369 in old money). I completed both in 1986 in the RNZAF and they were recognised when I subsequently trasnferred to the RAF in the 1990s.
The B Exams consisted of 2 general papers (Air Force Law and General Service Knowledge) - each about 3 hours long, if I recall correctly. Then there were special to branch papers: aircrew had to do an Airmanship paper, an Air Operations paper (drawn from the archaic but strangely prophetic AP1300) and a Nav/Pilot/Eng/ALM...paper. Ground Branches completed an additional Branch-specific paper. The knack in passing all the papers was to sit them immediately after completing officer training (for the general papers) and then immediately after your professional training for the Branch-specific papers.
The C Exam was renamed the International Affairs paper and involved attending a week-long series of seminars and lectures on...international affairs, follwoed by the exam. It was a subtley renamed PI$$EX for Flt Lts. From mid 1985 onwards, if you completed the 19 week IOT, the C exam was accredited as the IOTC included quite a bit on IA.
Even in my time there were Fg Offs who were unable to progress to Flt Lt becasue they had dropped papers and there were several elderly Flt Lts that I can recall who refused to sit the C Paper.
Bring them back, I say!
PS: Remember the Filofax thingy introduced by Sir Peter Harding that required you to get Akala's signature on as a junior officer?
Perhaps I am one of the last serving officers still with B and C exam qualifications - still duly filled out on the front of my OJAR (F1369 in old money). I completed both in 1986 in the RNZAF and they were recognised when I subsequently trasnferred to the RAF in the 1990s.
The B Exams consisted of 2 general papers (Air Force Law and General Service Knowledge) - each about 3 hours long, if I recall correctly. Then there were special to branch papers: aircrew had to do an Airmanship paper, an Air Operations paper (drawn from the archaic but strangely prophetic AP1300) and a Nav/Pilot/Eng/ALM...paper. Ground Branches completed an additional Branch-specific paper. The knack in passing all the papers was to sit them immediately after completing officer training (for the general papers) and then immediately after your professional training for the Branch-specific papers.
The C Exam was renamed the International Affairs paper and involved attending a week-long series of seminars and lectures on...international affairs, follwoed by the exam. It was a subtley renamed PI$$EX for Flt Lts. From mid 1985 onwards, if you completed the 19 week IOT, the C exam was accredited as the IOTC included quite a bit on IA.
Even in my time there were Fg Offs who were unable to progress to Flt Lt becasue they had dropped papers and there were several elderly Flt Lts that I can recall who refused to sit the C Paper.
Bring them back, I say!
PS: Remember the Filofax thingy introduced by Sir Peter Harding that required you to get Akala's signature on as a junior officer?
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 8th May 2012 at 07:41.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: NOTTINGHAM
Posts: 758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ISS has gone!
I believe the way it works these days is that a JO has to complete JOCC1 (Junior Officer Command Course) followed by JOCC2 - both held residential at Shrivenham. Then, as a Sqn Ldr, the ICSC (Intermediate Command and Staff Course), followed by A(dvanced)CSC (year long and encompassing an MA in Military Studies) - residential at Shrivenham. Most ground branches do ACSC as Wg Cdrs whereas aircrew tend to complete the course as Sqn Ldrs gaining promotion at the end of the course. Higher Command and Staff Course (HCSC) follows for those destined for very high rank - residential at Shrivenham.
The RAF also now runs 'through-life' air power doctrine training for all ranks which, for officers, commences at Initial Officer Training with the Basic Air Warfare Course (BAWC) and, for all those selected for promotion to Wg Cdr, the Higher Air Warfare Course whether they have completed ACSC or not! These 2 courses are 'trigger points' a) for commissioning and b) for promotion to Wg Cdr.
Information accurate to 2007 when I retired but updated by a daughter now serving.
Hopefully that helps.
Foldie
I believe the way it works these days is that a JO has to complete JOCC1 (Junior Officer Command Course) followed by JOCC2 - both held residential at Shrivenham. Then, as a Sqn Ldr, the ICSC (Intermediate Command and Staff Course), followed by A(dvanced)CSC (year long and encompassing an MA in Military Studies) - residential at Shrivenham. Most ground branches do ACSC as Wg Cdrs whereas aircrew tend to complete the course as Sqn Ldrs gaining promotion at the end of the course. Higher Command and Staff Course (HCSC) follows for those destined for very high rank - residential at Shrivenham.
The RAF also now runs 'through-life' air power doctrine training for all ranks which, for officers, commences at Initial Officer Training with the Basic Air Warfare Course (BAWC) and, for all those selected for promotion to Wg Cdr, the Higher Air Warfare Course whether they have completed ACSC or not! These 2 courses are 'trigger points' a) for commissioning and b) for promotion to Wg Cdr.
Information accurate to 2007 when I retired but updated by a daughter now serving.
Hopefully that helps.
Foldie
Never forget the satisfyingly disapproving look on my flight commander's face when the 'B' was abolished and Flt.Lt. Bas appeared down at the Sqn. 
I'm pro the gentlemen under discussion and my only anxiety is that their royal duties permit sufficient professional immersion and exposure to keep truly current, safe and effective.
I'm pro the gentlemen under discussion and my only anxiety is that their royal duties permit sufficient professional immersion and exposure to keep truly current, safe and effective.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Fg Off Bas, there was still a slot on the 1369 for 'not yet fit'. It was a catchall to avoid the Redress of Grievance charge if you put 'Unfit'.
Many fg off were dischuffed that they had moved up the career ladder and became eligible for SDO and other flt lt duties such as courts marshal. They had much rather been professional aircrew exempt niff-naff and trivia.
Many fg off were dischuffed that they had moved up the career ladder and became eligible for SDO and other flt lt duties such as courts marshal. They had much rather been professional aircrew exempt niff-naff and trivia.