RN & RAF SAR rescue off North Wales Coast
Wander00,
A bit later than intended but here is a summary of the loss in question. It comes from a book I'm writing but I don't believe I said that!
28-Aug-41 L6417 Botha I 4 AOS Off Rhosneigr, Anglesey 3+11
The aircraft was flying on a navigation exercise when an engine failed. The pilot ditched the aircraft in rough seas and the conditions were such as to make rescue efforts ineffective. The men listed below were amongst a group who attempted to rescue the aircraft’s crew but who died when the four small boats, which they had launched from the shore, were overwhelmed by the seas running at that time. Two 17 year old boys were awarded the George Medal for rowing out to the wreck and attempting to rescue the pilot. These boys; John Wood and Derek Baynham, spent well over two hours in great danger during their attempt. In addition to their George Medals, the boys received gifts from the Polish President and the RNLI Silver Medal for Gallantry. Baynham was subsequently employed on special duties work whilst still a teenager and he subsequently served in the Army, retiring as a Brigadier. He died on 16 May 2006 and his obituary makes interesting reading.
Sergeant Kazimierz Stefan ROSIEWICZ Polish Air Force - Crew
Leading Aircraftman Thomas Alexander DIXON 20
Leading Aircraftman Frederick Charles GLOCKLER 27
Leading Aircraftman Leslie Arthur FORD 615 Sqn - Rescuers
Aircraftman 1st Class Donald William BANNISTER 615 Sqn
2nd Lieutenant Peter Tyrel WHYSALL 23 Royal Artillery
Warrant Officer II (BSM) Alfred William MOGER 34
Gunner Sidney WILKINS 33
Gunner Clarence Herbert THORNTON 20
Gunner Ronald Kenneth SIMONS 33
Gunner Reginald EATON 20
Mr G C EVAN-JONES Coastguard
2nd Officer A J OWEN Merchant Navy
Police Constable George Cledwyn ARTHUR
Citation for: 404216 Sergeant John James PLUNKETT.
In August, 1941, an aircraft crashed into the sea. Many gallant attempts, both collective and individual, were made to rescue the three members of the crew, but conditions were such that all lost their lives, together with eleven of the would-be rescuers. Among numerous Royal Air Force personnel concerned, Sergeant Plunkett has been chosen for recognition as having shown outstanding gallantry. He swam out 300 yards in the raging sea and brought back an unconscious airman whom he attempted, with the help of others, to revive by artificial respiration. Unfortunately the airman died later. In addition to his efforts at artificial respiration, Sergeant Plunkett succeeded in bringing three other persons to the shore, and these owe their lives to his courage and determination.
(London Gazette – 6 January 1942)
A significant number of Royal Humane Society and National Lifeboat Institution medals were awarded for rescue attempts in this incident. For example, the Royal humane Society Bronze Medal was awarded to Lance Bombardier H S G Darke and Gunner F H Ebden, in addition to awards made to many of those who died in the incident.
I think you will agree a pretty dramatic event and it comes two days a Botha crashed through the roof of Blackpool railway station and killed very many civilians. Here again an RAF NCO was awarded a GM for his exceptional bravery with blazing petrol pouring down as he tried to extricate casualties.
Old Duffer
A bit later than intended but here is a summary of the loss in question. It comes from a book I'm writing but I don't believe I said that!
28-Aug-41 L6417 Botha I 4 AOS Off Rhosneigr, Anglesey 3+11
The aircraft was flying on a navigation exercise when an engine failed. The pilot ditched the aircraft in rough seas and the conditions were such as to make rescue efforts ineffective. The men listed below were amongst a group who attempted to rescue the aircraft’s crew but who died when the four small boats, which they had launched from the shore, were overwhelmed by the seas running at that time. Two 17 year old boys were awarded the George Medal for rowing out to the wreck and attempting to rescue the pilot. These boys; John Wood and Derek Baynham, spent well over two hours in great danger during their attempt. In addition to their George Medals, the boys received gifts from the Polish President and the RNLI Silver Medal for Gallantry. Baynham was subsequently employed on special duties work whilst still a teenager and he subsequently served in the Army, retiring as a Brigadier. He died on 16 May 2006 and his obituary makes interesting reading.
Sergeant Kazimierz Stefan ROSIEWICZ Polish Air Force - Crew
Leading Aircraftman Thomas Alexander DIXON 20
Leading Aircraftman Frederick Charles GLOCKLER 27
Leading Aircraftman Leslie Arthur FORD 615 Sqn - Rescuers
Aircraftman 1st Class Donald William BANNISTER 615 Sqn
2nd Lieutenant Peter Tyrel WHYSALL 23 Royal Artillery
Warrant Officer II (BSM) Alfred William MOGER 34
Gunner Sidney WILKINS 33
Gunner Clarence Herbert THORNTON 20
Gunner Ronald Kenneth SIMONS 33
Gunner Reginald EATON 20
Mr G C EVAN-JONES Coastguard
2nd Officer A J OWEN Merchant Navy
Police Constable George Cledwyn ARTHUR
Citation for: 404216 Sergeant John James PLUNKETT.
In August, 1941, an aircraft crashed into the sea. Many gallant attempts, both collective and individual, were made to rescue the three members of the crew, but conditions were such that all lost their lives, together with eleven of the would-be rescuers. Among numerous Royal Air Force personnel concerned, Sergeant Plunkett has been chosen for recognition as having shown outstanding gallantry. He swam out 300 yards in the raging sea and brought back an unconscious airman whom he attempted, with the help of others, to revive by artificial respiration. Unfortunately the airman died later. In addition to his efforts at artificial respiration, Sergeant Plunkett succeeded in bringing three other persons to the shore, and these owe their lives to his courage and determination.
(London Gazette – 6 January 1942)
A significant number of Royal Humane Society and National Lifeboat Institution medals were awarded for rescue attempts in this incident. For example, the Royal humane Society Bronze Medal was awarded to Lance Bombardier H S G Darke and Gunner F H Ebden, in addition to awards made to many of those who died in the incident.
I think you will agree a pretty dramatic event and it comes two days a Botha crashed through the roof of Blackpool railway station and killed very many civilians. Here again an RAF NCO was awarded a GM for his exceptional bravery with blazing petrol pouring down as he tried to extricate casualties.
Old Duffer
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BZ to all involved.
Crab, as a SAR pro rather than second guess the ARCCs reasons for sending particular aircraft, why not ask them directly? I'm sure you have their number. They are very professional and self-critical and would appreciate constructive feedback. There might have been very good reasons for sending Leconfield, if so you will learn something, if not they will learn something. I doubt they are permitted to comment publically on jobs unless through the official PR route, so this forum isn't really the best place to snipe at them
Would the original or new SAR(H) contract have the 'flexibility' to cope with the issues faced on this rescue? I suppose you could argue that most issues related to equipment, was that because it is old or the support is lacking? Would new/modern platforms be better? What would 3 u/s cabs do to the new structure? Not an attempt to knock the future, just genuine interest from someone who could be a customer one day
Crab, as a SAR pro rather than second guess the ARCCs reasons for sending particular aircraft, why not ask them directly? I'm sure you have their number. They are very professional and self-critical and would appreciate constructive feedback. There might have been very good reasons for sending Leconfield, if so you will learn something, if not they will learn something. I doubt they are permitted to comment publically on jobs unless through the official PR route, so this forum isn't really the best place to snipe at them
Would the original or new SAR(H) contract have the 'flexibility' to cope with the issues faced on this rescue? I suppose you could argue that most issues related to equipment, was that because it is old or the support is lacking? Would new/modern platforms be better? What would 3 u/s cabs do to the new structure? Not an attempt to knock the future, just genuine interest from someone who could be a customer one day
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Didn't the Bristow Coastguard contract S61's have a 2nd winch fitted after winchman fatality ?
The line had to be cut after it snagged in the ship's superstructure and could not be used again. A lifeboat at the scene could not approach because of the severity of conditions.
Valley, Prestwick, Leconfield, Ireland - the ARCC must have been running round like headless chickens 
Q: why didnt the Navy cab have a 2nd winch me thinks?
More importantly, the A55 alongside where the tanker came to rest was single lane for bl**dy hours and the traffic was horrendous
Q: why didnt the Navy cab have a 2nd winch me thinks?
More importantly, the A55 alongside where the tanker came to rest was single lane for bl**dy hours and the traffic was horrendous
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Q: why didnt the Navy cab have a 2nd winch me thinks?
I think this is a more valid question
All 4 Valley aircraft off state
BTW - I am NOT CRAB BASHING it just amazes me - Britains premier air service cant keep at least one cab servicable. Whats going on guys?
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Not sure that the RAF's Heath-Robinson emergency electrical hoist would have been viable in this situation - a snagged hook, heavily loaded, might well have compromised the integrity of the hoist frame mounting to the fuselage. Also not sure I would like to use a 50 fpm hoist in such conditions, but then the alternative option wasn't that palatable either...
Sadly, for many years multiple SKs off state have hardly been an uncommon occurrence although, by using a politician's approach to maths, needing combined total of 6 SKs and an S-61 to complete a single winching job (yes, I know, it was a pretty serious job) seems somewhat unfortunate. Even more sadly, 'what's going on' has very little to do with the quite astonishing daily efforts of those at the coal face who will have been doing their utmost to change the situation for the better, and no doubt have rather less hair as a result.
Unfortunately it doesn't matter how superlative your standards, training, professionalism, ethos and proactivity are if your helicopters don't work. A fully effective service needs reliable hardware, otherwise the taxpayers simply aren't getting what they are paying for.
Louis
Sadly, for many years multiple SKs off state have hardly been an uncommon occurrence although, by using a politician's approach to maths, needing combined total of 6 SKs and an S-61 to complete a single winching job (yes, I know, it was a pretty serious job) seems somewhat unfortunate. Even more sadly, 'what's going on' has very little to do with the quite astonishing daily efforts of those at the coal face who will have been doing their utmost to change the situation for the better, and no doubt have rather less hair as a result.
Unfortunately it doesn't matter how superlative your standards, training, professionalism, ethos and proactivity are if your helicopters don't work. A fully effective service needs reliable hardware, otherwise the taxpayers simply aren't getting what they are paying for.
Louis
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all 4 valley a/c off state
althenick
I'm more of a lurker really but i'm moved to post on the issue of valley being off state-
Normally we run 5 a/c not 4-
No 5 is at depth having a frame repair-spotted at valley and one tripped down to depth approx 4 weeks ago, no replacement available from depth, currently 3 weeks late.
No 4 has been long term u/s due to ambiguos wording/interpretation of the flight test schedule and various peoples reluctance to get off the fence.
No 3 was u/s with a frame crack- now concessed with 5 hrly inspects till depth visit- now 3 weeks late.
No 2 was awating air test post ecu cx-its secound since the original failed vibs- which had previously been rejected for the same,but we won't go there.
No 1 was happily flying as the only S asset till it was recalled by mig with high debris count from samples, which is looking like a mrgb cx,while its out its frame cracks could be sorted!
The Sk is an old frame in need of much attention, nobody 'allowed' them all to break at the same time ,it happens, get over it.I would much rather have a knackered SK in the hangar getting fixed than flying as a potential crash site.
rant over
I'm more of a lurker really but i'm moved to post on the issue of valley being off state-
Normally we run 5 a/c not 4-
No 5 is at depth having a frame repair-spotted at valley and one tripped down to depth approx 4 weeks ago, no replacement available from depth, currently 3 weeks late.
No 4 has been long term u/s due to ambiguos wording/interpretation of the flight test schedule and various peoples reluctance to get off the fence.
No 3 was u/s with a frame crack- now concessed with 5 hrly inspects till depth visit- now 3 weeks late.
No 2 was awating air test post ecu cx-its secound since the original failed vibs- which had previously been rejected for the same,but we won't go there.
No 1 was happily flying as the only S asset till it was recalled by mig with high debris count from samples, which is looking like a mrgb cx,while its out its frame cracks could be sorted!
The Sk is an old frame in need of much attention, nobody 'allowed' them all to break at the same time ,it happens, get over it.I would much rather have a knackered SK in the hangar getting fixed than flying as a potential crash site.
rant over
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I am an outsider looking in and simply asking question and most certainly NOT offering an opinion or making a judgement.
Is the role of Search and Rescue sometimes the very last option when someone's life is on the line and that aircraft is the very last option that might keep us from taking that last walk toward the pearly gates?
With several peoples lives hanging by a thread is it right that an aircraft is grounded just because:
I say 'just' but that might be unfair, if the odds are stacked against the aircraft not being safe then so be it but if this is bureaucracy that may or may not be responsible for lives being lost that could otherwise be saved then shame on those fence sitters!
I am not privvy to ANY of the facts regarding ANY specific incident and I am also NOT referring to any incident that has recently occured.
If tonight a military aircraft ditches into the sea and the only aircraft available to rescue the injured crew that are bobbing about in the ocean is No 4 then would that aircraft be grounded just because of
ambiguos wording/interpretation of the flight test schedule
Is the role of Search and Rescue sometimes the very last option when someone's life is on the line and that aircraft is the very last option that might keep us from taking that last walk toward the pearly gates?
With several peoples lives hanging by a thread is it right that an aircraft is grounded just because:
No 4 has been long term u/s due to ambiguos wording/interpretation of the flight test schedule and various peoples reluctance to get off the fence.
I am not privvy to ANY of the facts regarding ANY specific incident and I am also NOT referring to any incident that has recently occured.
If tonight a military aircraft ditches into the sea and the only aircraft available to rescue the injured crew that are bobbing about in the ocean is No 4 then would that aircraft be grounded just because of
ambiguos wording/interpretation of the flight test schedule
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This is not a mil bashing post, just a statement of fact. The modern civvy SAR aircraft have a vastly superior serviceability record. The smaller ones may not be a great platform, unlike the S92, but they still deliver when it comes to reliability. With only 2 engineers (and a day working Chief Engineer) keeping the HMCG aircraft online, are the mil aircraft over-maintained or is there too much paperwork/WRAM etc??? Does this not prove that the debate for upgrading/Carsonising and prolonging the SK was wrong. Replacements needed urgently- but with a decent aircraft and certainly not 5 big and 5 medium (small) as has been proposed. Lord help us.
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The Sk is an old frame in need of much attention, nobody 'allowed' them all to break at the same time ,it happens, get over it.I would much rather have a knackered SK in the hangar getting fixed than flying as a potential crash site.
I totally agree but when you consider that Gannet have 3 cabs and were flying around like (Dark) Blue Ar5ed Flie over the previous 24 hours. It does raise the question. Thanks for setting me straight. From someone who knows very little about those whirly-thingies it does seem just to be rather bad luck.
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Wander00,
Re: your post abouth Rhosneigr / crashed Botha, A J Owen was my great uncle. He was home on special leave due to the death of his father who had been buried the day before the crash.
Regards
WW
Re: your post abouth Rhosneigr / crashed Botha, A J Owen was my great uncle. He was home on special leave due to the death of his father who had been buried the day before the crash.
Regards
WW
