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FAFPS 2015

Old 27th Jul 2012, 13:14
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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MM4,

as a Naval Officer who is not in reciept of SP I do find the constant whining about having folded into pensions a little tiresome. As I have turned down 2 opportunities to join a SP earning community (through choice) there is no sense of bitterness - indeed SP is an added extra. If you don't like the way it is administered, and/or it's not enough to keep you in, then leave. Don't spend hours going on about it over and over again. There are lots of people carrying out specialised jobs in the Armed Forces who don't get extra money to do it.

I have no doubt that those who proposed AFPS05 did so in good faith, and the world has changed since. To ask for retrospective changes is bizarre and smacks more than a little of greed. I presume those who made the change from '75 to '05 were in search of more money and now that they won't get it they want to go back. Would they do so if '05 remained more profitable? You made a decision on the basis of the information available, live with it. There certainly was no paper-work describing AFPS15 hidden in a drawer to whipped out as soon as you made the decision.

Operational Capability is OC, and I have no doubt the RAF will survive regardless of how many leave. It might not be to your liking, and it might not have the capabilities it has now, but the world will turn; there will always people who want to be Pilots, there will always be old Pilots who just want to fly, and there will always be old Pilots who can't be arsed to leave. At present it seems far too many contributors to this thread believe they are the only answer to RAFs problems. If the grass is greener, go next door.

I appreciate that some are trying to be a good DO in all this, but there is a limit. We can't predict the future, and if your Division are so concerned about their future earnings that this is enough to make them uncommitted to life in the RAF, then I suggest they look for something else more stable.
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Old 27th Jul 2012, 15:06
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Alfred,

Without contending the thrust of what you say, the people I speak with about this (and there are many), are weary of living with the constant uncertainty and the constant expectation that coping with change is an integral part of the service contract now. AFPS is just one small aspect of the sense of malaise; NEM is only going to increase the sense of ever increasing, ever relentless change that servicemen (and their families more importantly) are expected to deal with.

If you spend a huge chunk of your life (as they do these days) isolated geographically, culturally, literally and physically from civvy street, then the sense of isolation is only going to get greater. Add to that, the sense that the feeling of commitment is only going one way, and add the fact that people can now communicate about it - I wonder if the reaction would have been any more different years/decades ago?

I don't think people are whining for the sake of it. The people I speak with just want certainty - once you know where the bottom is and when its going to be reached, then you can rebound off it and make plans. SP still and will always apply traditional service levels of commitment to the way they go about their business, but all they seem to get is a civilian level of service in return. The system will always capitalise on that and it is to servicemens credit (and to their ultimate disadvantage) that they will continue to plough on regardless.
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Old 30th Jul 2012, 10:00
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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MaroonMan4 …….I have bitten…..but with no hard feelings….

Before I retort I thought I would check my data trail for a keyword search of ‘survey’. I found no such word or reference in it. The first key information about the new pension was a DIN I got after Cpl Clott’s post. Although very informative the DIN had no mention of a survey. Before that I had actively requested information from JPAC and PSF but was told to wait for information. To respond to your post on the 26th of July:

1) believed that you and your colleagues were unsighted’ – They were. I asked them. Since then I have asked other serving members, from various sections, trades and ranks who LI or LO; they too were unsighted of the survey aspect of consultation.

2) ‘and even when overseas I picked up the requirement to have my say through Cpl Clott's informed posting’ – Cpl Clott’s post was very helpful, if you saw it, but PPrune is not how I should get informed about vital stuff. Besides unless you check regularly, a thread can easily drop-off page one of the threads list before you see it.

If it was just me and a few other I could accept that I may have missed it but that is not the case.

Now I have seen the survey it appears that the consultation was about AFPS 05 with no comparisons to AFPS 75. Suddenly I feel on the edge of a plank with the swords at my back which is not where I want to be.

PS: I am now following this thread so I will hopefully receive tip-offs about future consultation documents which I will pass on to others.
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Old 30th Jul 2012, 19:05
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Albert,

The online survey was part of the FAFPS consultation process that was launched on 29 Mar 12 and finished on 31 May. As usual this was announced in a DIN and an IBN was issued at the same time down the RAF chain. The FAFPS Team also did a load of briefings to MOBs and training units with focus groups at the end for various groups. On my unit the station pension focal point (each RAF unit has been required to appoint at least one JO or SNCO to disseminate information on pensions and provide feedback) did a brief on AFPS 75 and 05 before the FAFPS Team arrived and also repeated the Team's presentation later for those who were unable to attend their brief. The brief I went to was well attended and the Stn Cdr did the introductions so it had a fairly high profile here. I have just checked and FAFPS Team's presentation and script remains available on the MoD website to download if you want more detail. I think there were also pieces in the RAF News on it when it came out initially. So to echo some earlier posts, I thought the information was fairly accessible. With regards the survey questions relating to AFPS 05, this is because AFPS 75 is a closed scheme, therefore the changes proposed under FAFPS use AFPS 05 as the comparator as it is the most current and only open pension scheme for Regular Service personnel.

Reverend 71
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Old 30th Jul 2012, 20:38
  #105 (permalink)  
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Thanks for all the credit chaps, but all I did was attend one of these...

The FAFPS Team also did a load of briefings to MOBs and training units with focus groups at the end for various groups.
...and then keep an eye on the MoD website every other day or so.

Although it does remind me of this (with my underline Italics added):

VOGON CAPTAIN:
[On Speakers] People of Earth your attention please. This is Prostectic Vogon Jeltz of the Galactic Hyperspace Planet Council. As you no doubt will be aware, the plans for the development of the outlying regions of the western spiral arm of the galaxy require the building of a hyperspace express route through your star system and, regrettably, your planet is one of those scheduled for demolition. The process will take slightly less than two of your Earth minutes thank you very much.

MANKIND:
[Yells of protest]

VOGON CAPTAIN:
There's no point in acting all surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for fifty of your Earth years so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaints and its far too late to start making a fuss about it now.

MANKIND:
[Louder yells of protest]

VOGON CAPTAIN:
What do you mean you've never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh for heaven sake mankind it's only four light years away you know! I'm sorry but if you can't be bothered to take an interest in local affairs that's your own regard. Energise the demolition beams! God I don't know…apathetic bloody planet, I've no sympathy at all…
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Old 30th Jul 2012, 23:05
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Alas, the MoD has previous though, when it comes to communicating AFPS detail. Para 13 refers (from just a few months back, although it does refer to events dating back to 1995).

Pensions Ombudsman rejects ex RAF AFPS member's claim

He was not however provided with full information; a simple statement to the effect that specific index linking would not necessarily continue would have completely changed his decision to leave. He had been wrongly encouraged to consider the information he received about pension increases as reliable.

There does appear to be rather a lot of emphasis on the 'ignorance is no excuse' principle. Also, SPVA appears to be nicely insulated and if you do want to leave because of changes to AFPS and if you then seek redress, don't base your case on anything out of the MoD's control. This ruling took close to 2 years by the look of it.
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 12:14
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Calling Albert Another

Hot off the press from the Defence Intranet:

The proposed Outline Scheme Design of the new Armed Forces Pension Scheme to be introduced after April 2015 has been published today, 31 July.






The Outline Scheme Design, which sets out the key features of the new scheme is primarily aimed at Service personnel to explain the new scheme to those who will be affected. It will also be sent to external groups, including the Forces' Families Federations, the Forces Pension Society and the Royal British Legion.

Service personnel and external groups can submit comments by Friday 7 September. The final design will be agreed in September.
Over to you
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 12:44
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Have we got a link for those of us not in work?
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 12:57
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.. if anyone can slip me a copy too, I'd be grateful.

Thanks.
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 12:57
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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An accrual rate of 1/47th. That'll do nicely, sir.
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 13:05
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Found it.... PDF at bottom of the page....


http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Ab...nsultation.htm

Last edited by downsizer; 31st Jul 2012 at 13:07.
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 13:09
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New Civil Service scheme has an accrual rate of 1/43 I think. Still good though when you consider at outset, the g'ment was talking about 1/65 for some public sector workers (nurses, I think, are 1:54).

(thanks Downsizer)

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Old 31st Jul 2012, 13:25
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I don't get it, it says lump sums to be removed ala '75 and '05 yet says after 20/40 lump sum is paid at 2.5xdeferred pension on new scheme? Things were much simpler on '75...
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 13:26
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Al R,

Yes, I think you are right about the Civil Service, but they pay through the nose with personal contributions for that scheme and work for longer. We will still pay no personal contribution (and no our pay is not abated by 4% before anyone mentions it) and have a NPA of 60. I think the FAFPS Team have negotiated a good deal, given the hand they have been dealt. Indeed, I think a few of us will be better off under FAFPS than AFPS 75.

Rev
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 13:41
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Sounded good until I read:

Normal Pension Age of 60, though pension can be taken earlier (from 55), actuarially reduced from the Deferred Pension Age, as it will be paid for longer.

Is it just me, or does having an actuarially reduced pension at a compulsory retirement age seem like a bit of a con?

I suspect that we will not be too impressed when we find out what the actual accrual rate is.
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 13:54
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Rev,

Yes - agreed. I wouldn't like to be a nurse though (I don't have the legs for starters).

I've just read it and it could be a lot, lot worse (the devil is in the detail of course). And yes, you are right. Amongst others, this will benefit scheme member with a particular outlook on life!

btw: 75 was out of date pretty damned quickly and 05 wasn't far behind. Knowing how fluid actuaries are right now about being future-proof, instinct tells me this won't last anywhere near 25 years (re: below).

There should be no further changes to the new scheme for the next 25 years. The Government has said that new public service pension schemes should endure for 25 years, and has committed to no further changes during this period. The Government will set a cost cap on MOD’s contribution to future Armed Forces pensions; this will constrain costs which arise from unforeseen pressures (such as further increases in longevity). Provided the scheme remains within this cost cap, no changes to scheme design, benefits or contribution rates should be necessary. If costs were to rise above, or fall below, the cap in future, the new Pensions Board would consider the best approach to managing the increasing costs. Service personnel would be consulted about any changes

Last edited by Al R; 31st Jul 2012 at 14:03.
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 14:16
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Al,

My point is that a lot of people will assume that the accrual rate is linked to the Normal Retirement Age and would calculate their pensions based upon that.

In fact it's not, the rate is linked to retirement at 67 and for that reason the retirement at 60 is not the good deal you would assume that it is, it's just forced early retirement.

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Old 31st Jul 2012, 15:05
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I must admit to only a skim reading on this thus far.

Being on 75 pension, leaving early 2017 I think it hasn't hit too hard.

I believe that the quote ' The benefits you have already built up in your existing pension scheme will be protected and you will receive them when you would have expected to, linked to your final rank and pensionable pay – these are known as your accrued rights' gives me some ease.

I also like 'First day of paid service in the Armed Forces for both Officers and Other Ranks regardless of age'.

However, does the first quote mean that we are still going to get the lump sum ( albeit slightly less now, given calculations taken until 2015, vice 2017) or do we have to wait for that and commute at the 12:1 rate.

Slightly confused for sure. I wonder who our in service experts will be on this one.
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 15:43
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Yes, no more doing a year or so for the Queen.

How old are you in 2017? If you were born on or before 1 April 1967, you can stay on 75 and you won't be affected. If you're too young, you may still get the slightly smaller amount of your fund (three times annual pension as cash) in 2017 (depending on how many years you have done) and then at 65, have the ability to commute on the final 2 years worth of fund - which will mean (in real terms) a particularly small amount if you choose to go down that route. You could still also qualify for the FAFPS EDP.

The new EDP will continue to consist of a monthly income plus a tax-free lump sum. The monthly income will be 34% of the value of the ‘pension pot’ based on 1/47ths, plus a tax-free EDP lump sum of 2.25 times the ‘pension pot’. Further work is being undertaken to investigate the potential for giving Service personnel greater flexibility in how they receive their EDP benefits, in light of the responses to the initial consultation. The results of this work will be announced when a final agreement on the scheme design is announced in September.

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Old 31st Jul 2012, 15:49
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Being no expert on the ins and outs of pensions I await with eagerness the revised pension calculator then I'll have some idea of whether this is good or bad! I notice still that my bug bear with 05 hasn't been resolved, if you join up under 18 you still won't be 40 after 22 years service so no EDP just a deferred pension at 65 (i.e at least 20 years service and at least 40 years of age, court cases to follow unless they change Terms of Service, which I add they weren't planning on AFPS 05 but promise this time)
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