First Civilian Job
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First Civilian Job
I'm starting to look and apply for jobs as I approach my leaving option for the RAF. I have a couple of questions for those who have trod this path....
If you take a job with much lower pay and responsibility than you ultimately want - because that's what's available - are you 'setting your level'?
Will it make obtaining a better paid job more difficult in the future when the recruiter asks what salary you are on now (ignoring your previous military salary)?
Is it better to wait for the better job, or take a tide-me-over?
Any advice welcomed.
If you take a job with much lower pay and responsibility than you ultimately want - because that's what's available - are you 'setting your level'?
Will it make obtaining a better paid job more difficult in the future when the recruiter asks what salary you are on now (ignoring your previous military salary)?
Is it better to wait for the better job, or take a tide-me-over?
Any advice welcomed.
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I've always been of the belief that it is easier to get a job when you are already employed.
What I mean by that is that it shows you are willing (and able) to work. Your employment with the RAF should hold you in good stead to show future employers that you are a willing worker, but if you decide to wait for the right job to come along at what you think you deserve to be paid, then it
a) might never happen and
b) might take some time, thus making future employers believe that you'd rather sit around than do work you believe is below you/below what you think you deserve to be paid. If they think this, they might also think that if they employ you and down the line give you a task you might not like, you might not be bothered to do it well.
To my mind it is all about perception, especially at the moment when employers have the luxury of being able to choose from many applicants.
By all means, don't take a job flipping burgers or cleaning toiets just to look keen and employable, but at the same time, don't hang around waiting for the dream job.
Civvy street is different and it might take two or three jobs before you find something that ticks all your boxes (and you will probably have to make someo compromises). You might even find that once you land what you think at the moment is your dream job, it isn't all it turns out to be, resulting in a re-think.
Good luck in your hunt, you are at an advantage because of the skills you will have picked up in HM Forces, just make sure you sell yourself without sounding like you are owed a living because you served
What I mean by that is that it shows you are willing (and able) to work. Your employment with the RAF should hold you in good stead to show future employers that you are a willing worker, but if you decide to wait for the right job to come along at what you think you deserve to be paid, then it
a) might never happen and
b) might take some time, thus making future employers believe that you'd rather sit around than do work you believe is below you/below what you think you deserve to be paid. If they think this, they might also think that if they employ you and down the line give you a task you might not like, you might not be bothered to do it well.
To my mind it is all about perception, especially at the moment when employers have the luxury of being able to choose from many applicants.
By all means, don't take a job flipping burgers or cleaning toiets just to look keen and employable, but at the same time, don't hang around waiting for the dream job.
Civvy street is different and it might take two or three jobs before you find something that ticks all your boxes (and you will probably have to make someo compromises). You might even find that once you land what you think at the moment is your dream job, it isn't all it turns out to be, resulting in a re-think.
Good luck in your hunt, you are at an advantage because of the skills you will have picked up in HM Forces, just make sure you sell yourself without sounding like you are owed a living because you served
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There will be any number of opinions on this, but here are some pointers:
Not working gets quite demoralising.
You can get promoted/noticed even if you start right at the bottom again. People who turn up on time, dress tidily, don't frighten the customers and work hard soon rise up any organisation.
Given that even the minimum wage will bring in £1000 a month, and you won't be entitled to JSA probably, then not working is expensive.
If you take a job with much lower pay and responsibility than you ultimately want - because that's what's available - are you 'setting your level'? - I don't think so. You are feeding your family. It's tough out there and everyone respects a grafter.
Will it make obtaining a better paid job more difficult in the future when the recruiter asks what salary you are on now (ignoring your previous military salary)? Not working for a long period will frighten them so much you won't even get an interview.
Not working gets quite demoralising.
You can get promoted/noticed even if you start right at the bottom again. People who turn up on time, dress tidily, don't frighten the customers and work hard soon rise up any organisation.
Given that even the minimum wage will bring in £1000 a month, and you won't be entitled to JSA probably, then not working is expensive.
If you take a job with much lower pay and responsibility than you ultimately want - because that's what's available - are you 'setting your level'? - I don't think so. You are feeding your family. It's tough out there and everyone respects a grafter.
Will it make obtaining a better paid job more difficult in the future when the recruiter asks what salary you are on now (ignoring your previous military salary)? Not working for a long period will frighten them so much you won't even get an interview.
Sideways,
Firstly good luck and happiness to you on the way into the big bad world.
In answer to your question, I think your suspicions are correct. It is said that your CV is only as good as your last job. But Anotherthing is right, better to be an employed job seeker. I doubt that a short term "stopgap" will harm your prospects, but if you've been stacking shelves for three years, you might not make the short list for that CEO's job. I'm sure you see what I mean.
There is no easy answer to this, but my thoughts are that it may be worth waiting a few months for the dream job and if you need a stopgap, make it the best you can find, even if the money/location/hours/job aren't perfect.
Again, really good luck.
Courtney
P.S. Excellent words above [edit: and below], guys!
Firstly good luck and happiness to you on the way into the big bad world.
In answer to your question, I think your suspicions are correct. It is said that your CV is only as good as your last job. But Anotherthing is right, better to be an employed job seeker. I doubt that a short term "stopgap" will harm your prospects, but if you've been stacking shelves for three years, you might not make the short list for that CEO's job. I'm sure you see what I mean.
There is no easy answer to this, but my thoughts are that it may be worth waiting a few months for the dream job and if you need a stopgap, make it the best you can find, even if the money/location/hours/job aren't perfect.
Again, really good luck.
Courtney
P.S. Excellent words above [edit: and below], guys!
I agree with all the posters so far.
Civvy Street is different, and you can learn a lot observing from 'street level' for a bit.
Your problem may be getting people to hire you for a 'street level' job with a full Service CV. Try leaving chunks out. Civvy street is well aware of what Service types can do. You may well not get hired if the hirer realises you can do his job better than him.
When the ideal exec job turns up, they just see it as part of a Service ethos to always be in work. I have never had it held against me that I was (briefly) a milkman. Indeed, I arrived at one teaching job where the school on-site transport was an old milk float, and they were desperately grateful that I could drive it!
Good luck!
p.s. try to pick a job that lets you attend interviews easily, like milkman or similar hours jobs.
Civvy Street is different, and you can learn a lot observing from 'street level' for a bit.
Your problem may be getting people to hire you for a 'street level' job with a full Service CV. Try leaving chunks out. Civvy street is well aware of what Service types can do. You may well not get hired if the hirer realises you can do his job better than him.
When the ideal exec job turns up, they just see it as part of a Service ethos to always be in work. I have never had it held against me that I was (briefly) a milkman. Indeed, I arrived at one teaching job where the school on-site transport was an old milk float, and they were desperately grateful that I could drive it!
Good luck!
p.s. try to pick a job that lets you attend interviews easily, like milkman or similar hours jobs.
Actually, Civvy Street is the NORM, Military life is "different" - but it is what you're used to.
1st. Make sure you ditch terms like 'Team', 'We' and 'Us' and any military jargon and junk from your CV unless it is pitched at a "Team" or military-type job.
2nd. The first job you take, whatever that is and whatever it pays, is not your whole future life. If you dont like it YOU can move to whereever you want - there is no 'loyalty' except to the job that YOU like.
3rd. If you want more money it is unlikely that you will get it from your employer without changing contract - essentially getting a new job.
4th. The only persons you are really answerable to is your family - if you are single there should be no debate about what YOU want to do next.
1st. Make sure you ditch terms like 'Team', 'We' and 'Us' and any military jargon and junk from your CV unless it is pitched at a "Team" or military-type job.
2nd. The first job you take, whatever that is and whatever it pays, is not your whole future life. If you dont like it YOU can move to whereever you want - there is no 'loyalty' except to the job that YOU like.
3rd. If you want more money it is unlikely that you will get it from your employer without changing contract - essentially getting a new job.
4th. The only persons you are really answerable to is your family - if you are single there should be no debate about what YOU want to do next.
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When you leave you become your own poster, desk officer or appointer as appropriate* and make your own choices.
Loyalty in civvy world is a one way street...to you from yourself.
But there is much still to be enjoyed, just a different flavour.
G
*delete as appropriate
Loyalty in civvy world is a one way street...to you from yourself.
But there is much still to be enjoyed, just a different flavour.
G
*delete as appropriate
Civvy streets has a lot less rules and it can be hard to adapt after many years in following a standard of operating plus a hierarchy.
I think that you need to give yourself time to psychologically adjust to no longer working fulltime for HM Govt.
Anybody thinking its easy just refer to divorce and alcoholic rates among ex forces as they struggle to adjust................I have had a friend comparing it to bereavement of a close relative.
Just give yourself time to adjust, some people its no probs, others need time......some employers know this as well. So its not just ability they looking for, its the fitting in that is also important.
Taking a low level job is a good way of proving yourself (well as adjusting to civvy st), you are good as you believe it will become very obvious, also may show some gaps that were not obvious.
As others have correctly pointed out its easier to get another job when doing one.
Oh and the thing you will need most of all is Good Luck.
I think that you need to give yourself time to psychologically adjust to no longer working fulltime for HM Govt.
Anybody thinking its easy just refer to divorce and alcoholic rates among ex forces as they struggle to adjust................I have had a friend comparing it to bereavement of a close relative.
Just give yourself time to adjust, some people its no probs, others need time......some employers know this as well. So its not just ability they looking for, its the fitting in that is also important.
Taking a low level job is a good way of proving yourself (well as adjusting to civvy st), you are good as you believe it will become very obvious, also may show some gaps that were not obvious.
As others have correctly pointed out its easier to get another job when doing one.
Oh and the thing you will need most of all is Good Luck.
Always in civvy street. After 35 years employment I took redundancy and was unemployed for 8 months. I had the money and I wanted a rest. I saw a job advertised I could do, but when I went for it, the wage was lower than I expected. The employer asked what I thought of the wage and I told him it was lower than I expected but was willing to take it to get back in employment. I got the job and two months into my probationary he gave me a rise up to what I expected. He told me he had got tired of ‘time wasters’ who took the money but didn’t deliver. I did for 9 years.
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There is some good advice above.
Some years on from my release, I would certainly echo the idea of "civilianising" your CV - no abbreviations or jargon. I would also advocate this with regard to language (i.e. saying "Ministry of Defence" as opposed to saying it as MOD).
There are civilian employers couldn't care less that you have a service background, and this can be a surprise to some. Equally, there are those employers who value the qualities it can bestow upon an individual.
When I left, I too my first job at £9,500pa, after a military salary of £22,500pa. Having been unemployed for over six months, I bit their hand off for it - being unemployed is not fun when you're work minded.
Good luck - there is a world out there - it's just different!
Some years on from my release, I would certainly echo the idea of "civilianising" your CV - no abbreviations or jargon. I would also advocate this with regard to language (i.e. saying "Ministry of Defence" as opposed to saying it as MOD).
There are civilian employers couldn't care less that you have a service background, and this can be a surprise to some. Equally, there are those employers who value the qualities it can bestow upon an individual.
When I left, I too my first job at £9,500pa, after a military salary of £22,500pa. Having been unemployed for over six months, I bit their hand off for it - being unemployed is not fun when you're work minded.
Good luck - there is a world out there - it's just different!
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Echo just about all of the advice above. Be prepared to be flexible and if you can find your next role whilst still in work, so much the better.
I spent a while "Between jobs" recently after redundancy following 30-odd years' continuous employment (Light blue and civilian). Believe me - it's no fun. Eventually I accepted a year-long temporary contract a long way from home in a niche field (and at a rate below what I had considered to be my bottom line) that I wouldn't have considered had not necessity dictated. Within eight months my employer approached me about staying on in a wider role and on a much-improved permanent deal.
When tailoring your CV to match the role that you are after you might find it helpful to have a look at the potential employer's website(s) to see if you can get an idea of the "House Style" as there can be quite significant differences between organisations in the way in which they use our language. My present employers, for instance, are fans of brevity, bullet-points, PowerPoint and the odd buzz-word (I find that a "Scalable solution" is one that seems often to gain traction...), whilst other employers have favoured the more narrative approach.
As others have observed, there is a (different) World of work outside of the Services. Once you have got over the differences between the two, your military experience and ethos can make a really positive difference to both your own and your employer's futures.
Best of Luck.
I spent a while "Between jobs" recently after redundancy following 30-odd years' continuous employment (Light blue and civilian). Believe me - it's no fun. Eventually I accepted a year-long temporary contract a long way from home in a niche field (and at a rate below what I had considered to be my bottom line) that I wouldn't have considered had not necessity dictated. Within eight months my employer approached me about staying on in a wider role and on a much-improved permanent deal.
When tailoring your CV to match the role that you are after you might find it helpful to have a look at the potential employer's website(s) to see if you can get an idea of the "House Style" as there can be quite significant differences between organisations in the way in which they use our language. My present employers, for instance, are fans of brevity, bullet-points, PowerPoint and the odd buzz-word (I find that a "Scalable solution" is one that seems often to gain traction...), whilst other employers have favoured the more narrative approach.
As others have observed, there is a (different) World of work outside of the Services. Once you have got over the differences between the two, your military experience and ethos can make a really positive difference to both your own and your employer's futures.
Best of Luck.
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Some very salient points made above, the two I would most hang onto are:
1 - Take time to adjust and do not be surprised if you're left feeling like you've had an arm amputated.
2 - The loyalty issue. Most organisations in civvy street talk about team work and loyalty, but generally just to please the HR dept for the Equal Ops criteria.
I left but stayed in my comfort zone - I joined the police, holding on to the psychological pull of uniform, camaraderie, discipline and authority. It didn't take long to generally learn that the old bill lacks most of what I had just listed. Peers will be scared of you, as you continually prove you have more leadership and decision making skills than they will ever possess...and you will be amazed at the way people will pee on their mates just to get an inch ahead in life...
Be prepared to face the usual 'educated to degree standard' when searching for jobs. Not a problem if you have one but... it never fails to amaze me how many organisations still revert to this staid old recruitment threshold when the job market is over subscribed with graduates - most of which are not relevant - and turn a blind eye to experience in role; or indeed in life. You really do need to clearly identify your key transferable skills and outline to an employer how you can add value to their organisation.
A few examples of my job hunting to date (since 2007):
Small international Logs company - middle management position. Got interviewed but cut as I was deemed too ambitious in looking for advancement in the medium term.
Medium international deployed facilities provider - operations manager position. Got invited to interview, then a day prior I was told position had been filled by a friend of the CEO (friend happened to be retiring RE Major).
Oxfam - Ops Manager. Got screened out at paper sift (not enough humanitarian experience).
Save the Children - Ops manager. Got screened out (same reason as above).
British Red Cross - Emergency Response Unit Logs Offr. Got through to testing event. Bummed out on a mathematics test (sneaky)!!
Overseas agricultural contractor - Ops Manager. Offered the job on the spot. Sadly requires re-location to Australia and that’s not in my long-term plans (this job offer came about through a lot of networking).
Good luck!
1 - Take time to adjust and do not be surprised if you're left feeling like you've had an arm amputated.
2 - The loyalty issue. Most organisations in civvy street talk about team work and loyalty, but generally just to please the HR dept for the Equal Ops criteria.
I left but stayed in my comfort zone - I joined the police, holding on to the psychological pull of uniform, camaraderie, discipline and authority. It didn't take long to generally learn that the old bill lacks most of what I had just listed. Peers will be scared of you, as you continually prove you have more leadership and decision making skills than they will ever possess...and you will be amazed at the way people will pee on their mates just to get an inch ahead in life...
Be prepared to face the usual 'educated to degree standard' when searching for jobs. Not a problem if you have one but... it never fails to amaze me how many organisations still revert to this staid old recruitment threshold when the job market is over subscribed with graduates - most of which are not relevant - and turn a blind eye to experience in role; or indeed in life. You really do need to clearly identify your key transferable skills and outline to an employer how you can add value to their organisation.
A few examples of my job hunting to date (since 2007):
Small international Logs company - middle management position. Got interviewed but cut as I was deemed too ambitious in looking for advancement in the medium term.
Medium international deployed facilities provider - operations manager position. Got invited to interview, then a day prior I was told position had been filled by a friend of the CEO (friend happened to be retiring RE Major).
Oxfam - Ops Manager. Got screened out at paper sift (not enough humanitarian experience).
Save the Children - Ops manager. Got screened out (same reason as above).
British Red Cross - Emergency Response Unit Logs Offr. Got through to testing event. Bummed out on a mathematics test (sneaky)!!
Overseas agricultural contractor - Ops Manager. Offered the job on the spot. Sadly requires re-location to Australia and that’s not in my long-term plans (this job offer came about through a lot of networking).
Good luck!
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Really good comments from one and all. After 22 years I will miss the 'family' that is the military, but I suppose that having served I will always stumble across a dark blue/green/light blue mate somewhere!
I have several application in now, 2 interviews in the bag and a deal more confidence that something will turn up.
Thanks to all the posters.
I have several application in now, 2 interviews in the bag and a deal more confidence that something will turn up.
Thanks to all the posters.
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Everybody thinks they are brilliant at being an interviewer/ee, and yet most have had no training.
Be ready for the dreaded competency-based interview, which is just "give me an example of when you ...". Plan some anecdotes that might be called for with firm evidence to illustrate them.
Be ready for the person who asks all the wrong questions (or none at all) and be ready to list off the key achievements and skills that you have to offer that are relevant to the role, even without being asked directly to do so.
Bear in mind that in civilian life most people embellish their successes by 50% or more, whereas in military life one tends to undersell.
Be ready for the dreaded competency-based interview, which is just "give me an example of when you ...". Plan some anecdotes that might be called for with firm evidence to illustrate them.
Be ready for the person who asks all the wrong questions (or none at all) and be ready to list off the key achievements and skills that you have to offer that are relevant to the role, even without being asked directly to do so.
Bear in mind that in civilian life most people embellish their successes by 50% or more, whereas in military life one tends to undersell.
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All good words and lots of advice so I will just try to add what I’ve found. I left after 18 years and found my service background invaluable; I basically remained in the same field, albeit without a blue shirt.
What I wanted, what I found and what I was actually expecting are simple. I personally do not subscribe to the lower pay if you want to get going in the civil world, as those from any service are often far ahead of others when it comes to commitment, determination and wanting to do a good job. I have to frequently do final reviews of any new applicants within my organization and am constantly amazed at how poor some resumes that I see can be, so have a good resume, keep the service jargon out and tailor each one as well as a cover letter to each position you apply for. Other good tip as some have suggested, review the company you are applying to.
For myself, my two goals were either higher pay or a step up the ladder with each move and that has been the case; that said a step up does not always mean more responsibility, my next role is going to have less staff and less pressure. Perhaps I have been fortunate, but that came with a huge amount of work when it came to applications. I decided what my min salary would be, so that not only where the immediate family needs taken care of, but there was also a little extra to boot. As I say this took time and so long as your prepared for rejection letters or simply no response at all, no worries. Yes its always easier to get a job if you have one already – no pressure to make ends meet with nothing coming in. I’ve now had 2 jobs since leaving, the first a contract position, very high pay with no long term prospects. It was a stepping stone to my current job and that was why I took it, I am now looking to move on again. As many have already said loyalty is very different and you have to look out for yourself first and foremost.
I would say determine what you are looking for, what you need and aim high, if that’s what you want as you can always come down if required, basically don’t sell yourself short.
Best of luck
What I wanted, what I found and what I was actually expecting are simple. I personally do not subscribe to the lower pay if you want to get going in the civil world, as those from any service are often far ahead of others when it comes to commitment, determination and wanting to do a good job. I have to frequently do final reviews of any new applicants within my organization and am constantly amazed at how poor some resumes that I see can be, so have a good resume, keep the service jargon out and tailor each one as well as a cover letter to each position you apply for. Other good tip as some have suggested, review the company you are applying to.
For myself, my two goals were either higher pay or a step up the ladder with each move and that has been the case; that said a step up does not always mean more responsibility, my next role is going to have less staff and less pressure. Perhaps I have been fortunate, but that came with a huge amount of work when it came to applications. I decided what my min salary would be, so that not only where the immediate family needs taken care of, but there was also a little extra to boot. As I say this took time and so long as your prepared for rejection letters or simply no response at all, no worries. Yes its always easier to get a job if you have one already – no pressure to make ends meet with nothing coming in. I’ve now had 2 jobs since leaving, the first a contract position, very high pay with no long term prospects. It was a stepping stone to my current job and that was why I took it, I am now looking to move on again. As many have already said loyalty is very different and you have to look out for yourself first and foremost.
I would say determine what you are looking for, what you need and aim high, if that’s what you want as you can always come down if required, basically don’t sell yourself short.
Best of luck
On CV's a good way is to register with specialist agencies.............beware they may never get you a job. However spend time asking about suggestions on CV's and Interviews as in many cases they understand what employers are looking for.
Best part is they free.
This can be more relevant than outplacement assistance as they understand what makes employers go for Candidate X rather then Y.
Also have a number of CVs as people have said tailored to what the job is............if key is managing or being in a team then make sure your achievements spell that out or if its logistics then make sure they know about your ability to get it there on time.
Best part is they free.
This can be more relevant than outplacement assistance as they understand what makes employers go for Candidate X rather then Y.
Also have a number of CVs as people have said tailored to what the job is............if key is managing or being in a team then make sure your achievements spell that out or if its logistics then make sure they know about your ability to get it there on time.
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Yes it is strange and I am sure that there are positions out there, where the hirer will either be very pro ex servicemen, or the other way round.
When I left the RAAF in 1969 I got the first job I applied for at double the Air Force salary and a car.
Found out later the CEO was an ex WW2 Wing Commander and preferred ex serviceman. The interview was tough and he knew all the questions to ask and I was hired on the spot.
I was lucky I guess but you never fully know what thoughts and background the interviewer has. I suggest that honesty is the best policy, and with that in mind I got every job I applied for.
I think that lots of servicemen tend to put their background down on the list, But I for one would always hire ex servicemen if I had a choice.
All the best I hope you fall on your feet.
Regards Col
'
When I left the RAAF in 1969 I got the first job I applied for at double the Air Force salary and a car.
Found out later the CEO was an ex WW2 Wing Commander and preferred ex serviceman. The interview was tough and he knew all the questions to ask and I was hired on the spot.
I was lucky I guess but you never fully know what thoughts and background the interviewer has. I suggest that honesty is the best policy, and with that in mind I got every job I applied for.
I think that lots of servicemen tend to put their background down on the list, But I for one would always hire ex servicemen if I had a choice.
All the best I hope you fall on your feet.
Regards Col
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I would echo the advice of many regarding the psychological transition back to being a civilian again. For many, it can prove an obstacle in getting and retaining a position given that working life ( and for that matter daily life) is suddenly radically different in contrast to the military lifestyle. Leave the nostalgic memories for reunions.....and adapt to being one of many again.
Also, be aware that for many civilians, the term "ex-military" invariably equates to being ex Army......and a lot of civilians perceive such as "shouting orders" etc...
Regarding job hunting, be very aware of recruitment "consultants" and agencies. They have but one objective and it's not getting you a job...it's the commission they earn for finding a candidate to fill a position. They are purely sales driven, despite the seemingly plausible conversations they may hold with you.
Many have absolutely no idea as to how your specific experience relates to a position advertised. They often simply look for key words on the customers job spec.and then relate this to your CV.
If the above sounds rather negative, that's because I intend it to be so with your best interests at heart. The more you know and are aware of the "negatives", the more prepared you will be when you encounter them.
Also, be aware that for many civilians, the term "ex-military" invariably equates to being ex Army......and a lot of civilians perceive such as "shouting orders" etc...
Regarding job hunting, be very aware of recruitment "consultants" and agencies. They have but one objective and it's not getting you a job...it's the commission they earn for finding a candidate to fill a position. They are purely sales driven, despite the seemingly plausible conversations they may hold with you.
Many have absolutely no idea as to how your specific experience relates to a position advertised. They often simply look for key words on the customers job spec.and then relate this to your CV.
If the above sounds rather negative, that's because I intend it to be so with your best interests at heart. The more you know and are aware of the "negatives", the more prepared you will be when you encounter them.
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Job agencies are just body shops who are looking to pimp anyone into a role - so there is a chance they just will not "get" what you have to offer.
Aim high, but there is a difference between the job you are offered and what you actually want and my experience is its way easier to move between jobs.
Hope this helps.
Aim high, but there is a difference between the job you are offered and what you actually want and my experience is its way easier to move between jobs.
Hope this helps.
One vital tip that I've heard from friends who employ ex mil is make sure you drop your rank. You'd be amazed at how many ex military personnel keep referring to themselves as Col this or Maj that.
You're not in the military anymore, and while you should rightly be proud of your achievements, clinging to rank (and subconciously acting as if you were still that rank) is not going to help you get ahead in your new organisation.
You're not in the military anymore, and while you should rightly be proud of your achievements, clinging to rank (and subconciously acting as if you were still that rank) is not going to help you get ahead in your new organisation.