No cats and flaps ...... back to F35B?
...........
ZM135 arrives at Eglin:
http://www.nwfdailynews.com/articles/-51191--.html#ixzz21XnwWDBv
ZM135 arrives at Eglin:
http://www.nwfdailynews.com/articles/-51191--.html#ixzz21XnwWDBv
Is someone in the MoD department that allocates airframe serial numbers being a bit nostalgic about a previous aircraft called Lightning? Wasn't XM135 one of the first production EE Lightnings and also a bit famous for some other exploit?
>>Spotter mode - OFF<<
JSF Fan:
Neither a passive ESM system nor a tactical comms jammer meet any reasonable definition of "electronic attack".
As far as is known (and I am pretty sure that this is the case) the only active RF jamming/attack capability on the F-35 is inherent in the radar. This is X-band only and effective only against targets in the 120 degree forward sector.
Neither a passive ESM system nor a tactical comms jammer meet any reasonable definition of "electronic attack".
As far as is known (and I am pretty sure that this is the case) the only active RF jamming/attack capability on the F-35 is inherent in the radar. This is X-band only and effective only against targets in the 120 degree forward sector.
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4mastacker
this may be what you were thinking of: Taffy Holdens own story of his inadvertent flight
http://driverchris.********.co.uk/20...nt-flight.html
change the asterisks to "blog spot" without the space
this may be what you were thinking of: Taffy Holdens own story of his inadvertent flight
http://driverchris.********.co.uk/20...nt-flight.html
change the asterisks to "blog spot" without the space
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 26th Jul 2012 at 17:53.
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LO
Ok, so you accept that the f-35B has electronic attack, although it's not up to your standard.
You must have a good source because I can't find out much on the net about the f-35's multiple RF sensor arrays and how it all works
@Squirrel 41 the interviews with USMC pilots at www.sldinfo.com will give you the USMC CONOPS
this seems to be the USMC EW CONOPS
http://www.paxriverroost.org/MAGTF_EW__May_10.ppt.pdf
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rc...DDyJlGIWWfRWdg
Concept of Operations for Marine Air-Ground Task Force Electronic Warfare
4.2.1 Aviation EW.
From an aviation perspective the threats and the MAGTF‘s ability
to respond to them can be described by four basic categories:
Surface-to-Air, Air-to-Surface, Air-to-Air, and Surface-to-
Surface. In all cases the MAGTF EW airborne family of systems
must take into account an adversary‘s ability to affect our kill
chain with EW techniques. The need for advanced counter
technologies for these systems is of paramount importance for
MAGTF operations.
(1)
Surface-to-Air: In the 2016 – 2020 timeframe, the MAGTF can
expect to encounter advanced networked digital based systems,
and legacy platforms employed by state and non-state players.
Both current and future systems will be leveraged to address the
conventional information used by integrated air defense system
IADS nodes consisting of early warning, ground control intercept
(GCI), and target acquisition (TA) radars, as well as adversary
communications. This capability will mainly reside in manned
CONOPS for MAGTF EWsystems such as EA-6B ICAP III. To the greatest extent possible
any future EA-6B development and follow on Group 4 UAS
development should be tailored to EWBM capabilities including
the ability to act as a node in the EWBM network. It should be
noted that the F-35B will play a role in EW and EWBM; however,
it alone will not replace ICAP III EMS coverage. As procurement
of UAS platforms with interchangeable software programmable
payloads increases and the EA-6B continues to sundown, this
mission set will migrate away from the EA-6B to a future Group 4
UAS and F-35B. UAS platforms will afford the MAGTF commander
both sufficiency and persistence in his AOR, while the F-35B
will provide TACAIR a majority of its ability for deep strike
and to degrade and deny the Surface-to-Air threat.
Ok, so you accept that the f-35B has electronic attack, although it's not up to your standard.
You must have a good source because I can't find out much on the net about the f-35's multiple RF sensor arrays and how it all works
@Squirrel 41 the interviews with USMC pilots at www.sldinfo.com will give you the USMC CONOPS
this seems to be the USMC EW CONOPS
http://www.paxriverroost.org/MAGTF_EW__May_10.ppt.pdf
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rc...DDyJlGIWWfRWdg
Concept of Operations for Marine Air-Ground Task Force Electronic Warfare
4.2.1 Aviation EW.
From an aviation perspective the threats and the MAGTF‘s ability
to respond to them can be described by four basic categories:
Surface-to-Air, Air-to-Surface, Air-to-Air, and Surface-to-
Surface. In all cases the MAGTF EW airborne family of systems
must take into account an adversary‘s ability to affect our kill
chain with EW techniques. The need for advanced counter
technologies for these systems is of paramount importance for
MAGTF operations.
(1)
Surface-to-Air: In the 2016 – 2020 timeframe, the MAGTF can
expect to encounter advanced networked digital based systems,
and legacy platforms employed by state and non-state players.
Both current and future systems will be leveraged to address the
conventional information used by integrated air defense system
IADS nodes consisting of early warning, ground control intercept
(GCI), and target acquisition (TA) radars, as well as adversary
communications. This capability will mainly reside in manned
CONOPS for MAGTF EWsystems such as EA-6B ICAP III. To the greatest extent possible
any future EA-6B development and follow on Group 4 UAS
development should be tailored to EWBM capabilities including
the ability to act as a node in the EWBM network. It should be
noted that the F-35B will play a role in EW and EWBM; however,
it alone will not replace ICAP III EMS coverage. As procurement
of UAS platforms with interchangeable software programmable
payloads increases and the EA-6B continues to sundown, this
mission set will migrate away from the EA-6B to a future Group 4
UAS and F-35B. UAS platforms will afford the MAGTF commander
both sufficiency and persistence in his AOR, while the F-35B
will provide TACAIR a majority of its ability for deep strike
and to degrade and deny the Surface-to-Air threat.
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JSFfan,
Sorry, not sure I understand. Under what circumstances do you Need supersonic STOVL stealth strike fighter? It's not clear to me that the USMC needs anything more than an updated AV-8B II+, because any time a MEU will go in somewhere that has the odd SA-20/SA-17/SA-22/SA-24 IADS with evolved FLANKER / J-20s, controlled by KJ-200 AWACS, then I think it's pretty likely that the USN will send a CVN (or three).
And if you don't face something as complex as that, then a Harrier would be fine.
S41
Sorry, not sure I understand. Under what circumstances do you Need supersonic STOVL stealth strike fighter? It's not clear to me that the USMC needs anything more than an updated AV-8B II+, because any time a MEU will go in somewhere that has the odd SA-20/SA-17/SA-22/SA-24 IADS with evolved FLANKER / J-20s, controlled by KJ-200 AWACS, then I think it's pretty likely that the USN will send a CVN (or three).
And if you don't face something as complex as that, then a Harrier would be fine.
S41
JSFFan - You'll find a lot of funny stuff on SLDInfo, but not an answer to S41's question.
And no, I don't rate highly an EA capability that works only in one band and only if you're flying towards the hostile emitter. Eventually you are going to lose the burn-through-range race and get shot.
And no, I don't rate highly an EA capability that works only in one band and only if you're flying towards the hostile emitter. Eventually you are going to lose the burn-through-range race and get shot.
And now for something slightly different...
This is a tremendous accomplishment in flight control... or possibly a recipe for deep-fried electrohydraulic actuator... or maybe both. "Flaps" have never been so aptly named.
Last edited by LowObservable; 26th Jul 2012 at 20:53.
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Enhancing F-35 EW by Israel Agreement
Exclusive - U.S., Lockheed reach deal on Israeli F-35s
By Andrea Shalal-Esa | Reuters 26 July 2012
Exclusive - U.S., Lockheed reach deal on Israeli F-35s - Yahoo! News UK
"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon has reached an agreement with Lockheed Martin Corp on a $450 million (286.7 million pounds) program to enhance electronic warfare equipment on the F-35 fighter jet, and integrate Israeli-unique systems beginning in 2016, according to sources familiar with the negotiations.
The deal, to be finalized in coming weeks, marks a big step forward for Israel's $2.75 billion agreement to buy 19 F-35 jets, which was signed in October 2010 and includes options for up to 75 of the radar-evading fighters....
...Agreement on development of the new Israeli version of the F-35 will allow Israel to install its own radio and datalink systems, as well as other equipment, on the jets it is buying.
But the deal also covers enhancements to the airplane's electronic warfare capabilities that will benefit the United States, Israel and the other nine countries that either have already ordered fighter planes, or plan to in coming years...."
By Andrea Shalal-Esa | Reuters 26 July 2012
Exclusive - U.S., Lockheed reach deal on Israeli F-35s - Yahoo! News UK
"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon has reached an agreement with Lockheed Martin Corp on a $450 million (286.7 million pounds) program to enhance electronic warfare equipment on the F-35 fighter jet, and integrate Israeli-unique systems beginning in 2016, according to sources familiar with the negotiations.
The deal, to be finalized in coming weeks, marks a big step forward for Israel's $2.75 billion agreement to buy 19 F-35 jets, which was signed in October 2010 and includes options for up to 75 of the radar-evading fighters....
...Agreement on development of the new Israeli version of the F-35 will allow Israel to install its own radio and datalink systems, as well as other equipment, on the jets it is buying.
But the deal also covers enhancements to the airplane's electronic warfare capabilities that will benefit the United States, Israel and the other nine countries that either have already ordered fighter planes, or plan to in coming years...."
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What's wrong with SLDinfo? Personally I think it has some excellent and highly interesting reports and interviews regarding the F-35 on there. Unlike for example the so-called reporting from the likes of Bill Sweetman who I notice tends to take a snide and somewhat childish tone toward anything F-35. ( I seem to remember him writing an angry email to SLDinfo once that ended rather embarrassingly for him..)
SLD Forum: Debating the Future
SLD Forum: Debating the Future
Last edited by SteveDickson1955; 27th Jul 2012 at 07:32.
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Heathrow, High Expect,
I understand your point that a carrier is at risk, just fundementally disagree that it is a game changer.
The reason people develop weapons to counter capabilities is because they view them as potent and threatening...that's why no SAM was ever designed with the F3 in mind.. (Calm down chaps.) My point? The Chinese know how useful a CVN can be...even if some within the RAf and UK press don't.
What we (may) (supposedly) have is a country with a (potential) (unproven) chance at constructing a kill chain that results in you being denied a capability. Does that mean that from the get go your capability is null and void? No, absolutely not.
The Typhoon (as far as I am aware) has no great LO or EW string to it's bow. Are we saying it can't fight anyone with access to SA2, 3, 5, 6, 10, 11, 12, 20? Are we extrapolating and saying that because everyone's got SAMs and we can deploy less than twenty Typhoons we shouldn't even bother pitching up? No. And rightly so.
This has happened since the dawn of time. Since one side showed up with Goliath and the other brought David to the fight. Weapons and weapon systems have strengths and weakness. There's always a counter, and usually a counter to the counter. (Oh and weapons hardly ever work as advertised these days...only today I saw another advert claiming the Typhoon was multi role and 'nothing comes close'!)
Carriers have had their dawn, and will have their dusk. But not yet. For now they are a flexible and potent piece of sovereign territory. That can be found by few, targeted by fewer, and that answer to no one.
I understand your point that a carrier is at risk, just fundementally disagree that it is a game changer.
The reason people develop weapons to counter capabilities is because they view them as potent and threatening...that's why no SAM was ever designed with the F3 in mind.
. (Calm down chaps.) My point? The Chinese know how useful a CVN can be...even if some within the RAf and UK press don't.What we (may) (supposedly) have is a country with a (potential) (unproven) chance at constructing a kill chain that results in you being denied a capability. Does that mean that from the get go your capability is null and void? No, absolutely not.
The Typhoon (as far as I am aware) has no great LO or EW string to it's bow. Are we saying it can't fight anyone with access to SA2, 3, 5, 6, 10, 11, 12, 20? Are we extrapolating and saying that because everyone's got SAMs and we can deploy less than twenty Typhoons we shouldn't even bother pitching up? No. And rightly so.
This has happened since the dawn of time. Since one side showed up with Goliath and the other brought David to the fight. Weapons and weapon systems have strengths and weakness. There's always a counter, and usually a counter to the counter. (Oh and weapons hardly ever work as advertised these days...only today I saw another advert claiming the Typhoon was multi role and 'nothing comes close'!)
Carriers have had their dawn, and will have their dusk. But not yet. For now they are a flexible and potent piece of sovereign territory. That can be found by few, targeted by fewer, and that answer to no one.
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F-35 Test Pilot Talk Video
LONG VIDEO - appears to be about one hour duration - on VIMEO is 177Mb .MP4 and yep SLDinfo cannot SPel.
F-35 Pilots and the F-35: A Discussion at Farnbourgh Air Show 2012
by SldInfo.com 26 July 2012
"An overview of the F-35 program from the standpoint of the pilots in the program is provided in the videotape of the session at the Air Show on July 10, 2011
As readers of Second Line of Defense know, we have spent considerable time with F-35 test pilots and F-22 pilots.
We have as well interviewed Colonel Arthur Tomassetti who was one of the panelists.
He is the vice commander of the 33rd Fighter Wing, Air Education and Training Command, Eglin Air Force Base, Fla. The 33rd Fighter Wing serves as the home to the Joint Strike Fighter Integrated Training Center, providing pilot and maintenance training for nine international partners.
In the video, the pilots discuss the aircraft and its performance. It is fifth generation in more ways than its stealth characteristics; as we observed aboard the USS Wasp a F-18 pilot in landing the B stated that “this is the easiest aircraft to fly I have ever been in.”"
____________________
Sound not available on computer in use but I believe these are good 'quotes from the video'. YMMV.
"A couple of things from the Q&A section:
1. Ship trials included a few VL --> takeoff --> go around --> VL w/o refuel.
2. Hehe... first question from China News Agency was... Do you have a comment on the J-20? I kid you not.
3. Blk 2A more stable than 1B which was more stable than 1A.
4. SRVL and Ski Jump takeoffs this year. SRVL let's them recover about 2-3k lb more and approach 35kts faster. Ski Jump allows for larger loads and saves 150ft of deck run."
F-35 Pilots and the F-35: A Discussion at Farnbourgh Air Show 2012
by SldInfo.com 26 July 2012
"An overview of the F-35 program from the standpoint of the pilots in the program is provided in the videotape of the session at the Air Show on July 10, 2011
As readers of Second Line of Defense know, we have spent considerable time with F-35 test pilots and F-22 pilots.
We have as well interviewed Colonel Arthur Tomassetti who was one of the panelists.
He is the vice commander of the 33rd Fighter Wing, Air Education and Training Command, Eglin Air Force Base, Fla. The 33rd Fighter Wing serves as the home to the Joint Strike Fighter Integrated Training Center, providing pilot and maintenance training for nine international partners.
In the video, the pilots discuss the aircraft and its performance. It is fifth generation in more ways than its stealth characteristics; as we observed aboard the USS Wasp a F-18 pilot in landing the B stated that “this is the easiest aircraft to fly I have ever been in.”"
____________________
Sound not available on computer in use but I believe these are good 'quotes from the video'. YMMV.
"A couple of things from the Q&A section:
1. Ship trials included a few VL --> takeoff --> go around --> VL w/o refuel.
2. Hehe... first question from China News Agency was... Do you have a comment on the J-20? I kid you not.
3. Blk 2A more stable than 1B which was more stable than 1A.
4. SRVL and Ski Jump takeoffs this year. SRVL let's them recover about 2-3k lb more and approach 35kts faster. Ski Jump allows for larger loads and saves 150ft of deck run."
Evidently it's been reported in Janes Defence Weekly that "M.O.D. sources" have revealed details of long term planning for UK operational Fighter/Attack squadrons. While no set figure has been agreed regarding F35s, it would seem that with the F35B entry into service, the R.A.F. will get an additional two Typhoon squadrons. From 2030, the expectation is that a number of F35As, or whatever development there of, which is available at the time, will over the following decade replace the Typhoon. By 2040, the R.A.F. will be flying F35B and F35A.
However, nothing will be agreed in terms of the eventual number of F35s of either version until SDSR 2015.
FB
However, nothing will be agreed in terms of the eventual number of F35s of either version until SDSR 2015.
FB
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Thanks, FB. Here is what is available online.
UK slashes F-35B numbers but might look to split buy with F-35As By Robert Hewson 7/27/2012
UK slashes F-35B numbers but might look to split buy with F-35As
"UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has signalled a major revision to the UK's plan for procuring the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), with a sizeable cut in the expected number of F-35B short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft purchased and the possible acquisition of a second variant: the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) F-35A.
In remarks on 19 July in the United States, Hammond said the UK would order 48 F-35Bs to equip the UK's future carrier strike force. He added that a follow-on F-35 buy would be set out in a future Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR), with the aim of replacing the Eurofighter Typhoon in UK service.
Hammond was in the US to attend the handover of the UK's first F-35B (BK-1) at Lockheed Martin's Fort Worth facility. The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has confirmed his comments, telling IHS Jane's : "The defence secretary said that initially the UK would buy 48 jets for the aircraft carriers and announce at a later date what the final numbers would be. We will not finalise our decisions on the F-35 programme until SDSR in 2015."
UK slashes F-35B numbers but might look to split buy with F-35As By Robert Hewson 7/27/2012
UK slashes F-35B numbers but might look to split buy with F-35As
"UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has signalled a major revision to the UK's plan for procuring the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), with a sizeable cut in the expected number of F-35B short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft purchased and the possible acquisition of a second variant: the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) F-35A.
In remarks on 19 July in the United States, Hammond said the UK would order 48 F-35Bs to equip the UK's future carrier strike force. He added that a follow-on F-35 buy would be set out in a future Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR), with the aim of replacing the Eurofighter Typhoon in UK service.
Hammond was in the US to attend the handover of the UK's first F-35B (BK-1) at Lockheed Martin's Fort Worth facility. The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has confirmed his comments, telling IHS Jane's : "The defence secretary said that initially the UK would buy 48 jets for the aircraft carriers and announce at a later date what the final numbers would be. We will not finalise our decisions on the F-35 programme until SDSR in 2015."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 27th Jul 2012 at 19:12.
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Squirrel 41, the 'need' will be apparent if you go and read some interviews with harrier pilots over at SLD, it's obvious that you haven't googled - sld interview harrier pilot - yet or you would have found this for a start.
Shaping the Strike Force for Bold Alligator 2012: The Perspective of 2nd MAW | SLDInfo
The F-35 Pilot | SLDInfo
LO, it's strange that you find the interviews at SLD 'funny', I guess you aren't use to reading 1st hand accounts from the forces and prefer pamphlets and journalist's agendas
Shaping the Strike Force for Bold Alligator 2012: The Perspective of 2nd MAW | SLDInfo
The F-35 Pilot | SLDInfo
LO, it's strange that you find the interviews at SLD 'funny', I guess you aren't use to reading 1st hand accounts from the forces and prefer pamphlets and journalist's agendas
Last edited by JSFfan; 27th Jul 2012 at 23:33.
"It's obvious that you haven't googled - sld interview harrier pilot - yet or you would have found this for a start."
But it does not answer the question. What's the scenario where you need the F-35B's stealth - which is what has cost billions and will continue to do so - but don't send the CVN with its support capabilities?
Answer that, please, because the Commandant did not.
And whatever are you talking about with "pamphlets and journalist's [sic] agendas"?
By the way, I'm not being a punctuation Nazi for the hell of it. I do wonder, though, how people who haven't hacked third-grade English feel qualified to dump over other people on complex issues of technology and operations.
And to be specific about SLDInfo: They consistently retail pro-JSF propaganda, with no balance whatsoever. And they push ideas like the "Z-axis" (essentially, fused and netted avionics) without acknowledging that these attributes are not unique to the JSF, and are completely untested on the JSF platform.
But it does not answer the question. What's the scenario where you need the F-35B's stealth - which is what has cost billions and will continue to do so - but don't send the CVN with its support capabilities?
Answer that, please, because the Commandant did not.
And whatever are you talking about with "pamphlets and journalist's [sic] agendas"?
By the way, I'm not being a punctuation Nazi for the hell of it. I do wonder, though, how people who haven't hacked third-grade English feel qualified to dump over other people on complex issues of technology and operations.
And to be specific about SLDInfo: They consistently retail pro-JSF propaganda, with no balance whatsoever. And they push ideas like the "Z-axis" (essentially, fused and netted avionics) without acknowledging that these attributes are not unique to the JSF, and are completely untested on the JSF platform.
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LO, as long as I can understand what is written, I don't get too upset with grammar, but it annoys me when someone suffers a delusion of competency and tries to correct something that is already correct. The agenda is owned by the journalist, hence the apostrophe S.
EDIT, it's not worth making another post on it, but on reflection, 'the' was needed. If this is you 'not being a punctuation Nazi for the hell of it' I would love to see you in full flight.
A lot of support is off-board the CVN and these capabilities are transferable to a LHD type platform. So I don't understand what you mean, could you expand it please.
EDIT, LO, you still haven't expanded sufficently, a USMC MAGTF has a lot more than that going with it.
EDIT, it's not worth making another post on it, but on reflection, 'the' was needed. If this is you 'not being a punctuation Nazi for the hell of it' I would love to see you in full flight.
A lot of support is off-board the CVN and these capabilities are transferable to a LHD type platform. So I don't understand what you mean, could you expand it please.
EDIT, LO, you still haven't expanded sufficently, a USMC MAGTF has a lot more than that going with it.
Last edited by JSFfan; 28th Jul 2012 at 10:39.
CVN support?
AEW, without which the best equipped naval force has very little warning against a low-flying aircraft or missile threat. Broadband EA. Refueling to extend range and time-on-station. And more than six jets per deck, before you start offloading transport helicopters from the LHA/LHD.
Arguments that the F-35 will act as an AWACS or SIGINT platform fall down on the persistence issue.
(And since we're not writing in Latin here, if you leave out the article, it's plural. Nice try.)
AEW, without which the best equipped naval force has very little warning against a low-flying aircraft or missile threat. Broadband EA. Refueling to extend range and time-on-station. And more than six jets per deck, before you start offloading transport helicopters from the LHA/LHD.
Arguments that the F-35 will act as an AWACS or SIGINT platform fall down on the persistence issue.
(And since we're not writing in Latin here, if you leave out the article, it's plural. Nice try.)