Project Seedcorn - MPA Skill Retention
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Unless there is a plan for procuring an MPA in the next 5-6 years what use can this serve? As the gap continues into 7-8 years or greater do we leave them out there indefinately or do we bring them home and start the skill fade clock? There just doesn't seem to be any apparent thought going into this aside from being seen to be doing 'something' at the moment...unless the double-secret plan is about to be announced due to surprise pot of cash being discovered under the mattress...
If we wanted to buy COTS tomorrow how long from signing a contract to buy to placing it on a dispersal for the seedcorn guys to start developing policy, process and the mixings of an OCU? Plus how long to spark up a training system, write course material, find training aircraft, build sims at the training and operational bases and so on....I would say, having experience of flight trials and now bringing in new capability, albeit in a non-aviation form, that things don't happen nearly as quickly as you would think...
If we wanted to buy COTS tomorrow how long from signing a contract to buy to placing it on a dispersal for the seedcorn guys to start developing policy, process and the mixings of an OCU? Plus how long to spark up a training system, write course material, find training aircraft, build sims at the training and operational bases and so on....I would say, having experience of flight trials and now bringing in new capability, albeit in a non-aviation form, that things don't happen nearly as quickly as you would think...
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Should the RN get the new MPA/ MMA or whatever it's designated who will they get to operate it? If it's a similar size to MRA4 with around a dozen crew members ( and 10 crews on a squadron?) where is the FAA going to get them all from? What little fixed wing maritime experience that still exists is lodged within the RAF & the FAA can't rob from its rotary fleet without leaving that seriously undermanned. Do they expect all the ex-Nimrod guys to join the RN? With the seedcorn crews apparently being held to a stiff ROS would the RAF let them go even if they did want to crossover? Does the FAA need a big recruiting drive to get them trained before the ac arrive (if they in fact do)?
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Ken,
There are a fair few MPA (or MMA) guys and girls who don't really care what colour their uniform is. The RAF 'shafted' them; they would happily give the RN a go, I'd suggest.
Off to swab the poop deck, me hearties!
Duncs
There are a fair few MPA (or MMA) guys and girls who don't really care what colour their uniform is. The RAF 'shafted' them; they would happily give the RN a go, I'd suggest.
Off to swab the poop deck, me hearties!
Duncs
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ken, remember there was a very heavy light blue presence on the carriers with RAF manning AEW, F4 and Bucc. When AEW, F4 and Bucc transferred to light blue a number of dark blue moved across too. No question of changing uniforms just changing quarters and bases.
The precedent has been set many decades ago.
The precedent has been set many decades ago.
A few points about the MPA (MMA) seedcorn.
First of all the return of service is 5 years back in the UK, although there are no doubt ways around it.
Secondly, be under no illusion that in a few years time seedcorn will represent almost (yes I did say almost) all the remaining RAF MPA experience. The number of MPA WSOps that have been made redundant is very large, and those over 50 will not be players in any future UK MPA venture. Likewise most of the non-pilot officer expertise, Nav and AEO, will soon disappear, either through redundancy, non retention at the 38/40 point or natural wastage at 55. The WSO school is also closed, and the trade is effectively dead.
Any future MPA crews (with the possible exclusion of some pilots trawled back from AT/RJ etc) will have to be recruited from the high street and trained by the "seedcorn".
As to seedcorn itself, it is something of a fig leaf, a ready answer for the minister to give if asked an awkward question. They are either already overseas, or about to go, no doubt planned to return in 2015. The scheme might just work if the UK orders "off the shelf" MPA (P-8?) in 2015 for delivery in 2018. That gives the recently returned seedcorn a couple of years to put together a training package, and start training the first crews.
However, given the state of the economy, and the fact that the current government has already been driven off its course for "balancing the books" by 2015, the chances of ordering new aircraft in 2015 must be considered to be extremely thin. If no such aircraft are ordered then the value of the seedcorn initiative must be considered minimal.
Still, it was a relatively low cost no risk option, but whether anyone considers it a serious endeavour is open to debate....
First of all the return of service is 5 years back in the UK, although there are no doubt ways around it.
Secondly, be under no illusion that in a few years time seedcorn will represent almost (yes I did say almost) all the remaining RAF MPA experience. The number of MPA WSOps that have been made redundant is very large, and those over 50 will not be players in any future UK MPA venture. Likewise most of the non-pilot officer expertise, Nav and AEO, will soon disappear, either through redundancy, non retention at the 38/40 point or natural wastage at 55. The WSO school is also closed, and the trade is effectively dead.
Any future MPA crews (with the possible exclusion of some pilots trawled back from AT/RJ etc) will have to be recruited from the high street and trained by the "seedcorn".
As to seedcorn itself, it is something of a fig leaf, a ready answer for the minister to give if asked an awkward question. They are either already overseas, or about to go, no doubt planned to return in 2015. The scheme might just work if the UK orders "off the shelf" MPA (P-8?) in 2015 for delivery in 2018. That gives the recently returned seedcorn a couple of years to put together a training package, and start training the first crews.
However, given the state of the economy, and the fact that the current government has already been driven off its course for "balancing the books" by 2015, the chances of ordering new aircraft in 2015 must be considered to be extremely thin. If no such aircraft are ordered then the value of the seedcorn initiative must be considered minimal.
Still, it was a relatively low cost no risk option, but whether anyone considers it a serious endeavour is open to debate....
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Hansard 8th Mar 2012:
Q. Lord West of Spithead (Labour)
To ask Her Majesty's Government, further to the Written Answers by Lord Astor of Hever on 17 February (WA 194) and 14 February (WA 143-4), why the Ministry of Defence is funding a Royal Air Force Seedcorn initiative using ex-Nimrod aircrew; and what are the costs involved.
A. Lord Astor of Hever (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Defence; Conservative)
The Seedcorn initiative will sustain the UK's ability to operate high-end fixed-wing maritime patrol aviation in a range of complex operating environments by maintaining highly perishable skills, particularly in anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface unit warfare, search and rescue, and maritime intelligence, target acquisition and reconnaissance.
The approximate cost of the 33 RAF aircrew serving overseas as part of the Seedcorn initiative is £3.25 million for financial year 2011-12. This includes service pay costs, overseas allowances and travel and subsistence costs.
So that's unequivocal then - MoD to purchase 12+ MRA4 type MMA rather than squeezing 33 peeps into a Cessna Caravan.
That's what he's saying, isn't it?
Q. Lord West of Spithead (Labour)
To ask Her Majesty's Government, further to the Written Answers by Lord Astor of Hever on 17 February (WA 194) and 14 February (WA 143-4), why the Ministry of Defence is funding a Royal Air Force Seedcorn initiative using ex-Nimrod aircrew; and what are the costs involved.
A. Lord Astor of Hever (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Defence; Conservative)
The Seedcorn initiative will sustain the UK's ability to operate high-end fixed-wing maritime patrol aviation in a range of complex operating environments by maintaining highly perishable skills, particularly in anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface unit warfare, search and rescue, and maritime intelligence, target acquisition and reconnaissance.
The approximate cost of the 33 RAF aircrew serving overseas as part of the Seedcorn initiative is £3.25 million for financial year 2011-12. This includes service pay costs, overseas allowances and travel and subsistence costs.
So that's unequivocal then - MoD to purchase 12+ MRA4 type MMA rather than squeezing 33 peeps into a Cessna Caravan.
That's what he's saying, isn't it?
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Well it's hardly an answer to the question, is it? Lord West is asking why they are doing it (recalling no doubt all the previous statements that we don't need an MPA because we can do the job just as well with Merlin, Type 23, C130 etc.) and he just gets the answer as to what it might achieve (ie skill retention against a capability that we don't require......apparently.)
EG
EG
I'm no MPA specialist at all, but it strikes me that a better approach would be rather than spending money, for an indefinite period, to send guys overseas to retain/learn MPA skills we should wait until our replacement MPA has been selected and due for arrival, and then pay foreign experts to come to Uk to set up our OCU. We could hire in current foreign serving personnel or recently retired guys as contractors.
That way you are only paying for what you need. You could also have some RN experts and ex-nimrod guys as observers/advisors within the OCU just to make sure that any specific old Uk lessons lerned in the past were retained or included within Trg.
That way you are only paying for what you need. You could also have some RN experts and ex-nimrod guys as observers/advisors within the OCU just to make sure that any specific old Uk lessons lerned in the past were retained or included within Trg.
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EG, actually my noble Lord Astor does answer the question - that's why I inserted the post.
Scuttled (I take it you're of the damp persuasion), the inference I'm making from this politco speak, which I'm sure as an intelligent chap you can understand, is that if we need to maintain the highly perishable skills required for HIGH END maritime patrol aviation then does that not imply a future platform?
Why spread your wee MPA cadre to the 4 winds to maintain and improve their MPA abilities on our allies HIGH END platforms, unless the intent was to bring them back to introduce into service a new (and as yet unannounced) HIGH END MPA platform. Why?
So that's what I infer from Lord Astor's reply, and is that not what this thread is about?
If we do end up with a number of P8 Poseidon, then I would wish the seedcorn peeps the very best of luck in creating (virtually from scratch) the basic and advanced training systems, SOPs, tactics and standardisation development, operational support including software production and development, oh and an operational Sqn or two. In the twilight of your career, they're just the sort of tasks you want to be contemplating as you relax in the * Florida sunshine, rum punch in hand. * Insert Oz / NZ as required. The Canada 7 I assume will be awash with moose milk / purple death and will therefore be beyond caring.
Paul Chocs - interesting suggestion. Especially the
There may be some merit in that, I'm sure there's a large cadre of WIWON's who would be more than willing to dispense their decades of maritime (and other ISTAR) nuggets of knowledge and cunning at a very reasonable price, when the call comes. If, that is, you can prise them away from the lucrative and contented civvy lifestyle most have carved for themselves since Oct 2010.
Its another option for the MoD when they decide what they want to do.
Scuttled (I take it you're of the damp persuasion), the inference I'm making from this politco speak, which I'm sure as an intelligent chap you can understand, is that if we need to maintain the highly perishable skills required for HIGH END maritime patrol aviation then does that not imply a future platform?
Why spread your wee MPA cadre to the 4 winds to maintain and improve their MPA abilities on our allies HIGH END platforms, unless the intent was to bring them back to introduce into service a new (and as yet unannounced) HIGH END MPA platform. Why?
So that's what I infer from Lord Astor's reply, and is that not what this thread is about?
If we do end up with a number of P8 Poseidon, then I would wish the seedcorn peeps the very best of luck in creating (virtually from scratch) the basic and advanced training systems, SOPs, tactics and standardisation development, operational support including software production and development, oh and an operational Sqn or two. In the twilight of your career, they're just the sort of tasks you want to be contemplating as you relax in the * Florida sunshine, rum punch in hand. * Insert Oz / NZ as required. The Canada 7 I assume will be awash with moose milk / purple death and will therefore be beyond caring.
Paul Chocs - interesting suggestion. Especially the
we could hire in current foreign serving personnel or recently retired guys as contractors.
Its another option for the MoD when they decide what they want to do.
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Alfred the Great,
I am frankly disgusted by your comment as regards "justification".
How on earth could you write this????
Would you like to tell this to the grieving relatives of XV 230?
What is wrong with you, and MODs PLEASE have a word.
I am frankly disgusted by your comment as regards "justification".
How on earth could you write this????
Would you like to tell this to the grieving relatives of XV 230?
What is wrong with you, and MODs PLEASE have a word.
Champagne anyone...?
Sorry but I fail to share your outrage.
Alfred the Great made no comment about the loss of XV230 but merely expressed an opinion as to the general use of the Nimrod as an ISTAR platform. I suspect the relatives won't care what "someone on the internet" thinks about MPA multi-tasking as a) it in no way questions the professionalism with which the crew of XV230 took on the job with which they were tasked and b) it won't bring their loved ones back. XV230 could just have easily as met it's tragic fate coming off the tanker over the North Sea on a training sortie.
I could say that the conflict in Afghanistan (and Iraq) isn't worth the hundreds of lives it has cost this country to date. I'm clearly entitled to that opinion but it does in no way denigrate the sacrifices those servicemen and women made whilst carrying out their duties.
It is possible to discuss these matters without considering every contentious comment made to be a slur on those who have made the ultimate sacrifice.
Alfred the Great made no comment about the loss of XV230 but merely expressed an opinion as to the general use of the Nimrod as an ISTAR platform. I suspect the relatives won't care what "someone on the internet" thinks about MPA multi-tasking as a) it in no way questions the professionalism with which the crew of XV230 took on the job with which they were tasked and b) it won't bring their loved ones back. XV230 could just have easily as met it's tragic fate coming off the tanker over the North Sea on a training sortie.
I could say that the conflict in Afghanistan (and Iraq) isn't worth the hundreds of lives it has cost this country to date. I'm clearly entitled to that opinion but it does in no way denigrate the sacrifices those servicemen and women made whilst carrying out their duties.
It is possible to discuss these matters without considering every contentious comment made to be a slur on those who have made the ultimate sacrifice.
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Interesting thread. The MPA as a capability has been disposed of (wrongly) and there is no programme for replacement in the future, yet we are paying to retain seedcorn and no-one is moaning (not even the RN)
There is another programme that is funded and the RN are retaining a seedcorn capability with the USN and FRN and yet I hear lots of moaning from the light blue (because they are not involved cos it means sea-time) - ah yes, it must be the CVF programme.
There is another programme that is funded and the RN are retaining a seedcorn capability with the USN and FRN and yet I hear lots of moaning from the light blue (because they are not involved cos it means sea-time) - ah yes, it must be the CVF programme.
Should we take a leaf out of the UAE's book, or perhaps go down the CASA C295 route?
"UAE Air Force Dash 8 1321 (ex A6-ADG) Night Stopped at Shannon on delivery to Dubai via Palermo. Another one will follow soon (ex A6-ADF)."
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It might not be a P-3 or a P-8, but it's better than nothing, surely?
"UAE Air Force Dash 8 1321 (ex A6-ADG) Night Stopped at Shannon on delivery to Dubai via Palermo. Another one will follow soon (ex A6-ADF)."
1321 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
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It might not be a P-3 or a P-8, but it's better than nothing, surely?
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BS
Mate, your post is well OTT. There are many of us ex Nimrod folk who held broadly similar views regarding the use of an MPA in such roles. Whether they are valid views or not, there is surely no need to bring such outrage to the debate.
Pour yourself a stiff one.
Mate, your post is well OTT. There are many of us ex Nimrod folk who held broadly similar views regarding the use of an MPA in such roles. Whether they are valid views or not, there is surely no need to bring such outrage to the debate.
Pour yourself a stiff one.
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Just remember there's quite a few nimrod guys not doing seedcorn but trying something else within the RAF. You don't forget MPA things overnight so could comeback should the need arise. So a bit more than 33 and with standards and ocu experience.