Spitfire crash landing in Scotland WW11
In jumpseaters post #47, he has a link to a web site showing aircraft losses in the North East of England.
Looking through the list, not one Lancaster bomber crashed in that area.
Is that unusual considering most other planes are listed ?
Not when you look at the dates listed, the Lancaster was introduced to service in 42, I suspect that in the 43-45 lists (not visible) there may be a few, though a google search of lancaster/crash/northumberland doesn't bring any up.
Looking through the list, not one Lancaster bomber crashed in that area.
Is that unusual considering most other planes are listed ?
Not when you look at the dates listed, the Lancaster was introduced to service in 42, I suspect that in the 43-45 lists (not visible) there may be a few, though a google search of lancaster/crash/northumberland doesn't bring any up.
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Thanks Jumpseater.
Ironic that the other night after reading this, the TV program "Heartbeat" had the episode on about a crashed Mosquito where the dig found a piece of the plane and they ended up finding the crash site.
.
Ironic that the other night after reading this, the TV program "Heartbeat" had the episode on about a crashed Mosquito where the dig found a piece of the plane and they ended up finding the crash site.
.
Looking at the story another way can the phrase ‘crash landed’ be another term for ‘force landed’.
This chap gets airborne from Biggin and runs straight into low stratus with tops at about 5/600 ft. and then has a radio failure. The teaching at that time was that if one was lost above low stratus one aimed for higher ground. He was a Canadian and would not have realised that his best bet was west towards the Chilterns and Salisbury Plain; he turned north/northwest to the middle of England.
It was not working out but he still had plenty of fuel and by setting coarse pitch and +½ lb boost he would have had a fair amount of time. However, once he had cast his die then he was strapped with it so he had to continue, and he did, for over an hour; then the cloud started to break up underneath him.
He was now looking for an airfield and then he saw a long field that was not an airfield but possibly a relief landing ground. He now, because his fuel was running out, had a choice between bailing out or landing it. He was scared of stepping out of a serviceable aircraft so he landed; and he got away with it; completely undamaged.
As there was nobody around, being a Canadian, he went downhill because you will reach either the sea or a city. He got a lift into Selkirk and was taken to the Police Station where he would have told them what had happened. Not without some difficulty, especially if the sergeant had come from Glasgow. However they would have told the RAF and assured him that they would look after the aircraft because the bloke who had given him a lift had told them were it was. At the same time they would have decided that Turnhouse, being the biggest, was the best place for him to go so they gave him a railway warrant to get there. With the warrant came the directions to the pub so that he could wrap himself around a pint until the train came; and off he went.
Later on a truck arrived with a load of RAF bods. They set up camp by the aircraft and the truck went back with the information as to what state the aircraft was in. The next day a Queen Mary plus a crane lorry arrived. They lifted the spitfire, retracted the wheels, removed the wings and slotted the assemblies into a ready made cradle on the Queen Mary. They then drove of to the nearest Aircraft Repair and Recovery Unit.
Over the next day or so the aircraft would have been fully checked over and then it would have been earmarked for reissue. Eventually a young ATA girl would have flown it to an operational unit to be taken on by a squadron.
Next day it was shot down.
Somewhere in the halls of admin some scribbler is writing an official report on the whole saga. He gets a telephone call.
“Do you know that Spit that you are writing a report on has been lost?”
“No, I didn’t; thank you.”
Picks up report plus all the paperwork involved with it and slides them into the waste paper basket.
End of story
This chap gets airborne from Biggin and runs straight into low stratus with tops at about 5/600 ft. and then has a radio failure. The teaching at that time was that if one was lost above low stratus one aimed for higher ground. He was a Canadian and would not have realised that his best bet was west towards the Chilterns and Salisbury Plain; he turned north/northwest to the middle of England.
It was not working out but he still had plenty of fuel and by setting coarse pitch and +½ lb boost he would have had a fair amount of time. However, once he had cast his die then he was strapped with it so he had to continue, and he did, for over an hour; then the cloud started to break up underneath him.
He was now looking for an airfield and then he saw a long field that was not an airfield but possibly a relief landing ground. He now, because his fuel was running out, had a choice between bailing out or landing it. He was scared of stepping out of a serviceable aircraft so he landed; and he got away with it; completely undamaged.
As there was nobody around, being a Canadian, he went downhill because you will reach either the sea or a city. He got a lift into Selkirk and was taken to the Police Station where he would have told them what had happened. Not without some difficulty, especially if the sergeant had come from Glasgow. However they would have told the RAF and assured him that they would look after the aircraft because the bloke who had given him a lift had told them were it was. At the same time they would have decided that Turnhouse, being the biggest, was the best place for him to go so they gave him a railway warrant to get there. With the warrant came the directions to the pub so that he could wrap himself around a pint until the train came; and off he went.
Later on a truck arrived with a load of RAF bods. They set up camp by the aircraft and the truck went back with the information as to what state the aircraft was in. The next day a Queen Mary plus a crane lorry arrived. They lifted the spitfire, retracted the wheels, removed the wings and slotted the assemblies into a ready made cradle on the Queen Mary. They then drove of to the nearest Aircraft Repair and Recovery Unit.
Over the next day or so the aircraft would have been fully checked over and then it would have been earmarked for reissue. Eventually a young ATA girl would have flown it to an operational unit to be taken on by a squadron.
Next day it was shot down.
Somewhere in the halls of admin some scribbler is writing an official report on the whole saga. He gets a telephone call.
“Do you know that Spit that you are writing a report on has been lost?”
“No, I didn’t; thank you.”
Picks up report plus all the paperwork involved with it and slides them into the waste paper basket.
End of story
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 10th Jul 2012 at 09:11.
Thread Starter
Sensible interpretation Fareastdriver !
He did however say that he run out of fuel.
There would certainly be no one around.
He made no mention of the police
Geographically the pub or hotel in question was the first thing he would have encountered on reaching the town, after which he would make his way a mile or so downhill to the railway station.
Tha fact that he walked away suggests the the arcraft was not too badly beat up.
I have no idea why he failed to turn up the next day or why he checked out of his diggs a few day early. I only know that it was after his dinner and drink in a hotel in the town after visiting my studio and after the story started to circulate around the town.
In Selkirk, news travels faster than broadband. it always has !
From what I understand if he had taken off from Biggin, his subsequent flight must have been pretty short to allow him enough fuel to make the proceding 310 mile flight to Selkirk (or Dryden)
He did however say that he run out of fuel.
There would certainly be no one around.
He made no mention of the police
Geographically the pub or hotel in question was the first thing he would have encountered on reaching the town, after which he would make his way a mile or so downhill to the railway station.
Tha fact that he walked away suggests the the arcraft was not too badly beat up.
I have no idea why he failed to turn up the next day or why he checked out of his diggs a few day early. I only know that it was after his dinner and drink in a hotel in the town after visiting my studio and after the story started to circulate around the town.
In Selkirk, news travels faster than broadband. it always has !
From what I understand if he had taken off from Biggin, his subsequent flight must have been pretty short to allow him enough fuel to make the proceding 310 mile flight to Selkirk (or Dryden)
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Brilliant FED. Totally feasible.
Now who can we get to write the screenplay and sell it to Hollywood?
Cruise could play the Canadian. We would need a love interest, so.......
Ah, it's time for my medication again.
Seriously, this thread is becoming quite addictive. A real whodunit.
Now who can we get to write the screenplay and sell it to Hollywood?
Cruise could play the Canadian. We would need a love interest, so.......
Ah, it's time for my medication again.
Seriously, this thread is becoming quite addictive. A real whodunit.
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It sounds very similar to a story told to me by an American ex Eagle Squadron Pilot,at Biggin Hill Air day where I was part of the Display.He had landed at Turnhouse(Edinburgh),after having taken off from Duxford.The Briefing Officer, had given them a QDM to set on their P11 compass ring with which they could fly back to the English Coast from their sortie,assuming a Wind direction and speed as given by the Met Officer.If the wind had changed significantly from the time of the early morning briefing,as happens,a strong southerly could end up with an aircraft well over the north sea tracking towards Flamborough head and then Scotland,instead of a track to Biggin.Furthermore in the language used,an "Overshot" does not necessarily mean a landing/overshoot,but more likely an "overfly" based on elapsed time.Based on the similar story from an unaquainted pilot,the American,it is perfectly feasible and probably not uncommon to end up in Scotland!!!!After an adrenalin rush and having survived a few minutes of combat,plus the shakes,put yourself in his position.At the early stages of solo cross country flying,how many "Wrong Way Robinsons" have you come across??I have met quite a few ,humble enough to admit it!!!!
Thread Starter
After an adrenalin rush and having survived a few minutes of combat,plus the shakes,put yourself in his position
Gentleman Aviator
All very believable. I nearly turned onto a TAS instead of a hdg once on the LL link route (remember that) - which would have taken me and my JP to central London (I'd probably have noticed that!).
Like the idea of a film! Kate Winslett as the ATA pilot/love interest - after all, she used to have a Nav as a father-in-law!
Like the idea of a film! Kate Winslett as the ATA pilot/love interest - after all, she used to have a Nav as a father-in-law!
Eventually a young ATS girl would have flown it to an operational unit to be taken on by a squadron. - FED
Like the idea of a film! Kate Winslett as the ATA pilot/love interest - after all, she used to have a Nav as a father-in-law! - Teeters
If my my dear departed friend Rita, with 47 different types flown during her ATA days, will forgive me, I prefer the original "ATS girl" option - much more exciting!
Jack
PS Wonderful stuff, El Grifo - as someone who spent much of his childhood in the Border hills, more power to your elbow
Like the idea of a film! Kate Winslett as the ATA pilot/love interest - after all, she used to have a Nav as a father-in-law! - Teeters
If my my dear departed friend Rita, with 47 different types flown during her ATA days, will forgive me, I prefer the original "ATS girl" option - much more exciting!
Jack
PS Wonderful stuff, El Grifo - as someone who spent much of his childhood in the Border hills, more power to your elbow
Thread Starter
Well, "The Southern" is on the case and they already have been in touch with the B+B lady who is currently scanning both her memory and her records.
They tell me that they have had similar success in the past with aviation stories of this nature.
Keep up the research and suggestions though people !
They tell me that they have had similar success in the past with aviation stories of this nature.
Keep up the research and suggestions though people !
E-G, you mention in post #58 that the gent ` had already visited the site before he spoke to you`...Did he say how he had got there..? had he a hire car../ local taxi..? bus?..also ,as the train does not now run to Selkirk,how did he get there in the first place?
It is also rather amazing that some `40 yrs` after the event,he is able to return there,so the site must be fairly `unique` in terms of features/accessibility/buildings nearby...
The nearest Spitfire crash site that I found in `High ground wrecks &relics` refers to a Spitfire MkII P8587,which crashed on Bellyside Hill 25/3/43 ; that is close to The Cheviot (a very `Piggin Hill`),and was from Eshott,57 OTU..But that`s the other side of Jedburgh,some 25 miles from Selkirk..
It is also rather amazing that some `40 yrs` after the event,he is able to return there,so the site must be fairly `unique` in terms of features/accessibility/buildings nearby...
The nearest Spitfire crash site that I found in `High ground wrecks &relics` refers to a Spitfire MkII P8587,which crashed on Bellyside Hill 25/3/43 ; that is close to The Cheviot (a very `Piggin Hill`),and was from Eshott,57 OTU..But that`s the other side of Jedburgh,some 25 miles from Selkirk..
Thread Starter
If you read my posts you will already have had a full report of our conversations. At no time did he tell me what mode of transport he used.
Although I described Selkirk as a one horse town, it does have paved roads and a bus service.
He could have reached the town an many manner of ways.
Perhaps he had a hire car, I have no idea.
Guess you missed this belly landing then !
Glentress, Peebles.
25 June, 1944. EP276, FLS, (Flight Leaders School),a Spitfire V I belive. Listed as, "Ran out of fuel, belly-landed." Another ref' states, "Engine cut, crashlanded."
Or:-
37MU 15-6-42 611S 1-7-42 65S 16-9-42 FAAC 16-9-42 ros 52OTU 14-2-43 FAAC 27-7-43 VA Aston Down FLS 2-2-44 wheels up landing Glentrees Peebles CE 25-6-44
Grateful for your research HB, but I think you are possibly mistaken. Do not let that stop you from further research. Any input is welcome !
Out of the mouths of babes and infants etc etc
Although I described Selkirk as a one horse town, it does have paved roads and a bus service.
He could have reached the town an many manner of ways.
Perhaps he had a hire car, I have no idea.
Guess you missed this belly landing then !
Glentress, Peebles.
25 June, 1944. EP276, FLS, (Flight Leaders School),a Spitfire V I belive. Listed as, "Ran out of fuel, belly-landed." Another ref' states, "Engine cut, crashlanded."
Or:-
37MU 15-6-42 611S 1-7-42 65S 16-9-42 FAAC 16-9-42 ros 52OTU 14-2-43 FAAC 27-7-43 VA Aston Down FLS 2-2-44 wheels up landing Glentrees Peebles CE 25-6-44
Grateful for your research HB, but I think you are possibly mistaken. Do not let that stop you from further research. Any input is welcome !
Out of the mouths of babes and infants etc etc
Last edited by El Grifo; 17th Jan 2012 at 14:51.
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Originally Posted by green granite
There was the case of a covert Lysander overshooting Biggin on return from France and ending up in Scotland I believe
Also, locals tend to remember such things occuring, even after all this time, so it's suprising to me El Grifo seems to have drawn a blank from the older residents of Selkirk.
Thread Starter
Jackpot
The Borders newspaper, or to be more accurate, one of their top guys went at this like a dog at a rabbit.
We now have a name, lot's more detail, a potential contact overseas and more info on the crash site.
Out of respect to the local newspaper who have probably cracked this, I have agreed to hold information until publishing date on Thursday .
Thanks guys !
PS. Sadly, nothing on Shergar though
We now have a name, lot's more detail, a potential contact overseas and more info on the crash site.
Out of respect to the local newspaper who have probably cracked this, I have agreed to hold information until publishing date on Thursday .
Thanks guys !
PS. Sadly, nothing on Shergar though
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Remember one of their Pilots landed an FW190A at Pembrey thinking he had crossed the Channel back to France,plus one landed at Manston,same difference!If you are not thinking straight,plus your instruments may be toppled,as only the Germans had electric fully rolling horizons,you could end up anywhere having misread your awkward P11 Compass,above cloud.I seem to remember back inthe 60s,that if you were caught above cloud you let yourself down out at what you hoped was out at sea,and turned east or west depending which side of the country you were,and found landfall,working your way to a known?land point then finding your way back to base without asking for a practice fix.That was how they had to do it 20 years earlier.Definitely not so improbable,when you add adrenalin and fuel constraints.