Spitfire crash landing in Scotland WW11
Thread Starter
AA, ok 100% convinced is taking things a bit far.
What I meant really is that the entire demeanour of ther man left me with the firmest impression that he was a person on a pilgrimage to revisit a major event in his past life.
I think it is not too difficult to assess in ones mind pretty quickly whether someone is genuine or not. He walked like a duck, talked like a duck and to me he really was a duck, to use your parlance !
Selkirk can without a doubt be accurately described a one horse town (apart that is from one day in June every year)
A business associate of mine once described it more accurately as a "Chip Shop Town" Go Figure !
The crash or landing or whatever one would like to call it took place near Dryden on a low long flat hill .
I will without doubt be visiting the local press on my return to Scotland and also asking questions at the local constabulary.
Dear McGoonagall, being a palemerk I have no fear whatsoever of the Teries, if local knowledge is to be believed, they fled frae Flodden after all
What I meant really is that the entire demeanour of ther man left me with the firmest impression that he was a person on a pilgrimage to revisit a major event in his past life.
I think it is not too difficult to assess in ones mind pretty quickly whether someone is genuine or not. He walked like a duck, talked like a duck and to me he really was a duck, to use your parlance !
Selkirk can without a doubt be accurately described a one horse town (apart that is from one day in June every year)
A business associate of mine once described it more accurately as a "Chip Shop Town" Go Figure !
The crash or landing or whatever one would like to call it took place near Dryden on a low long flat hill .
I will without doubt be visiting the local press on my return to Scotland and also asking questions at the local constabulary.
Dear McGoonagall, being a palemerk I have no fear whatsoever of the Teries, if local knowledge is to be believed, they fled frae Flodden after all
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I have a plausible explanation:-
The old gentleman was confused. No matter how strongly he believed he overshot Biggin he overshot somewhere else.and ended up where he did. The memory will do odd things to someone who wasn't brought up in the country when they try to remember things many years ago. I experienced similar in a discussion here about Salamanca camp in Belize. I knew Belize pretty darned well when I was there. But twenty years later I couldn't remember where Salamanca was in the country... I could picture the actual camp but had no idea where it was in the country.
The old gentleman was confused. No matter how strongly he believed he overshot Biggin he overshot somewhere else.and ended up where he did. The memory will do odd things to someone who wasn't brought up in the country when they try to remember things many years ago. I experienced similar in a discussion here about Salamanca camp in Belize. I knew Belize pretty darned well when I was there. But twenty years later I couldn't remember where Salamanca was in the country... I could picture the actual camp but had no idea where it was in the country.
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Reminds me of an elderly gentleman in Heysham, Lancashire who always repeated the same story in the pub
That as a WWII flying boat (Sunderland?) pilot off the Cumbrian coast he'd been attacked by a Ju-88. The story was that he'd managed to evade, get down to Morecambe Bay and then fly up the River Lune at low level. He was followed by the Ju-88 - who didn't see the power lines across the Lune feeding the refinery at Heysham. He got the flying boat under the wires, but the Ju-88 crashed into them. He ended the engagement by motoring up the river to Lancaster and going for a pint in one of the pubs on the quay.
Sounds farfetched. Yet he repeated this story just about every night, time and time again until I'm sure he believed it. I asked around, no-one local had ever heard of the event and no-one believed it. I'm sure an event of that type would have been noted, but noone knew anything.
Yet this old chap was convinced it had happened - almost every night he would recite with consistent detail of how he'd beaten the Ju-88
I'm sure that through the repeated story telling he had convinced himself of the truth.
That as a WWII flying boat (Sunderland?) pilot off the Cumbrian coast he'd been attacked by a Ju-88. The story was that he'd managed to evade, get down to Morecambe Bay and then fly up the River Lune at low level. He was followed by the Ju-88 - who didn't see the power lines across the Lune feeding the refinery at Heysham. He got the flying boat under the wires, but the Ju-88 crashed into them. He ended the engagement by motoring up the river to Lancaster and going for a pint in one of the pubs on the quay.
Sounds farfetched. Yet he repeated this story just about every night, time and time again until I'm sure he believed it. I asked around, no-one local had ever heard of the event and no-one believed it. I'm sure an event of that type would have been noted, but noone knew anything.
Yet this old chap was convinced it had happened - almost every night he would recite with consistent detail of how he'd beaten the Ju-88
I'm sure that through the repeated story telling he had convinced himself of the truth.
Thread Starter
If the gentleman concerned was from RAF Ackilngton, why would have gone to Turnhouse after his crash?
Or am I missing something?
Or am I missing something?
AA, anything is possible.
I think I will give up for now before this thread goes the way of many threads on Pprune.
Thanks to those who have made an effort to help both on the thread and by PM.
If any real information turns up after my visit to Scotland I shall make it known
El Grifo
I introduced Acklington in that Spitfire squadrons that went to Biggin and came from there operated from Acklington, so there could be a futher reason for a 'Biggin' based/bound Spitfire being in the area. I missed
EG's post that stated the gent went to Turnhouse to report in afterwards.
This site is pretty good regarding losses in the borders area
Aircraft and Airmen losses in North East England
Nothing immediately fits the bill in their listings.
EG's post that stated the gent went to Turnhouse to report in afterwards.This site is pretty good regarding losses in the borders area
Aircraft and Airmen losses in North East England
Nothing immediately fits the bill in their listings.
180 degree navigation errors are not uncommon using the P series of compass which reqire the 'T' to be set up to steer a course. In the dark or times of high workload, it is possible. I've seen it more than once while instructing on the Chippy.
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It's interesting, (to me at least), that there have been some threads here about the Military forum becoming "diluted" and "off course" by the influx of ex and non military types... I think this thread is a perfect example of why those who think that are sometimes wrong.
This thread has an undoubtedly military aviation core that has had input from many people of differing backgrounds that have offered various "solutions". If nothing else, it has made those who got involved, (and, I'm sure, many who didn't), think about the story and what might have happened.
There are many threads here that bring huge benefit to this community - they don't all start with serving aircrew talking about current events...
'Nuff said...
This thread has an undoubtedly military aviation core that has had input from many people of differing backgrounds that have offered various "solutions". If nothing else, it has made those who got involved, (and, I'm sure, many who didn't), think about the story and what might have happened.
There are many threads here that bring huge benefit to this community - they don't all start with serving aircrew talking about current events...
'Nuff said...
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El- G,
You seem to be remarkably sensitive!
It is not clear who you are addressing in your last post
- but AA's post is firmly in support of your thread and the varied contributions to it .
If you are referring to AA's post I suggest you read what he said again and thank him for his support !
You seem to be remarkably sensitive!
It is not clear who you are addressing in your last post
- but AA's post is firmly in support of your thread and the varied contributions to it .
If you are referring to AA's post I suggest you read what he said again and thank him for his support !
Thread Starter
Stop Press !
neilf92, you are 100% correct and I apologise unreservedly for my misinterpretation of AA's posT.
My only excuse is that I am so fixated by my quest that the first thing I do when I crawl out of bed in the morning is check for updated info.
This is exactly what I did this morning. Note to onself Drink Coffee and Engage brain prior to reading Pprune posts and replying !
Thankfully AA wil still be in the land of nod although I will pm him later by way of an apology.
Thanks very much for pointing out my faux-pas.
My only excuse is that I am so fixated by my quest that the first thing I do when I crawl out of bed in the morning is check for updated info.
This is exactly what I did this morning. Note to onself Drink Coffee and Engage brain prior to reading Pprune posts and replying !
Thankfully AA wil still be in the land of nod although I will pm him later by way of an apology.
Thanks very much for pointing out my faux-pas.
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Apologise for the slight thread drift.
In jumpseaters post #47, he has a link to a web site showing aircraft losses in the North East of England.
Looking through the list, not one Lancaster bomber crashed in that area.
Is that unusual considering most other planes are listed ?
In jumpseaters post #47, he has a link to a web site showing aircraft losses in the North East of England.
Looking through the list, not one Lancaster bomber crashed in that area.
Is that unusual considering most other planes are listed ?
Perhaps a pointer. Eshott Airfield just west of Acklington was a training base for Spitfires from 1942. Eshott was also known as Bockenfield Aerodrome. Bockenfield in a Canadian accent may have been confused for Biggin Hill.
Thread Starter
Anything is worth considering and is entirely possible that the gentleman himself was confused, although he was as clear and concise as anyone could be in his story.
He did however, say more than once, Biggin Hill !
Thanks
El G.
An interesting point was put to me today in respect of the contributers who consider the fellow to be a fake.
Why did he want me to accompany him to the site to shoot pictures.
How could this be the basis for a scam ?
He did however, say more than once, Biggin Hill !
Thanks
El G.
An interesting point was put to me today in respect of the contributers who consider the fellow to be a fake.
Why did he want me to accompany him to the site to shoot pictures.
How could this be the basis for a scam ?
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The insurmountable problem with overshooting Biggin Hill and ending up in Selkirk is that fact that he'd have to have overflown about 400 active wartime airfields to end up in a pretty remote area at that time. That pretty much leaves the only reasonable explanation that he was IFR the entire time.
Still, given the cruising speed of a Spitfire is about 250MPH/220kts, it shouldn't have taken him over an hour to realized he'd overshot, even with a tailwind!
I strongly suspect either there was a lot more to the story or he was, to use the wartime phrase, "shooting you a line."
Still, given the cruising speed of a Spitfire is about 250MPH/220kts, it shouldn't have taken him over an hour to realized he'd overshot, even with a tailwind!
I strongly suspect either there was a lot more to the story or he was, to use the wartime phrase, "shooting you a line."
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A seriously intriguing tale, and one that has clearly got a lot of people, me included, thinking about the possibilities.
For me the oddest thing about the Canadian gentleman's story is what he did after the crash. Yes, if he'd made it into Selkirk he could have caught a train. Selkirk served as the terminus of the Selkirk and Galashiels Railway, which until 1951 carried passengers to connect with the Edinburgh and Hawick Railway: and from there he could have travelled to Edinburgh.
But would he have done? He had left a Spitfire on a hill, a valuable (if bent) military asset which was presumably fully armed and therefore dangerous to anyone who stumbled across it. OK, his first port of call might conceivably have been for a pint. But would he not have supped this while waiting for the recovery team to arrive in response to his phone call to his base, or Turnhouse? He would surely at least have contacted the local police to have them guard the plane to protect it and local residents.
And "them" it would certainly have been. As baffman has already noted, Selkirk was not a one horse town, though I'd not testify to the number of chip shops. At the time it was the county towm of Selkirshire, and was and remains home to a Sheriff Court. As such it was and is the focal point of a fairly large rural community.
Moving on, did you get any sense of what the gentleman wanted you to take photographs OF? Let's assume the site was somewhere in the area between the farm at Dryden Greenhill and the loop of the A7, north of Dryden. You'd have arrived some four and a half decades late on the scene of the crash. If there were any physical remains the crash would certainly feature in the online or printed literature about aircraft wreck sites, and it seems not to. So what did he actually want you to photograph? A bare hillside or hilltop seems hardly worth his effort or yours.
For me the oddest thing about the Canadian gentleman's story is what he did after the crash. Yes, if he'd made it into Selkirk he could have caught a train. Selkirk served as the terminus of the Selkirk and Galashiels Railway, which until 1951 carried passengers to connect with the Edinburgh and Hawick Railway: and from there he could have travelled to Edinburgh.
But would he have done? He had left a Spitfire on a hill, a valuable (if bent) military asset which was presumably fully armed and therefore dangerous to anyone who stumbled across it. OK, his first port of call might conceivably have been for a pint. But would he not have supped this while waiting for the recovery team to arrive in response to his phone call to his base, or Turnhouse? He would surely at least have contacted the local police to have them guard the plane to protect it and local residents.
And "them" it would certainly have been. As baffman has already noted, Selkirk was not a one horse town, though I'd not testify to the number of chip shops. At the time it was the county towm of Selkirshire, and was and remains home to a Sheriff Court. As such it was and is the focal point of a fairly large rural community.
Moving on, did you get any sense of what the gentleman wanted you to take photographs OF? Let's assume the site was somewhere in the area between the farm at Dryden Greenhill and the loop of the A7, north of Dryden. You'd have arrived some four and a half decades late on the scene of the crash. If there were any physical remains the crash would certainly feature in the online or printed literature about aircraft wreck sites, and it seems not to. So what did he actually want you to photograph? A bare hillside or hilltop seems hardly worth his effort or yours.
Thread Starter
I am the first to admit this is a very strange story.This is why it has remained very much alive in my head for so long.
The gent in question, as I have already said, was a dignified, well dressed, erudite Canadian, who had clearly made his way to Selkirk to re-visit a scene of a wartime drama, if he was to be taken at face value.
I talked to him for a period of time. and I took him at face value.
He had already visited what he told me was the site and wanted to return with me to shoot some pictures of the area along with the views and presumably with him in some of the shots. We never got as far as that. We discussed possibility, location, cost, along with why he wanted the shots taken. Bear in mind, an old farmer from the area had memories of some kind of incident involving an aircraft during WW11.
The local press have now taken up the story so perhaps some new light will be thrown on the situation.
Whatever one might think about Selkirk nowadays and regardless of it's status, during wartime it was probably less than a one horse town with the bulk of men away at war.
If this person was as disoriented and confused as he would have been if he had been involved in such a trauma, it is hardly surprising that he wanted to return as fast as possible to his "own"
The reason why he found himself in such a situation my have contributed.
If you can thing of a better reason why a person of this calibre would travel a long distance to a little borders town to pay someone to photograph an empty field, then please enlighten me.
He was not senile, he was not doddery, he was exactly as I have described him several times.
What I am hoping for here, is that someone with closer access to records and a greater understanding of WW11 fighter operations can turn up some details.
There is already one possible lead that is being investigated and as I say The local press have taken up the story.
I hope we can get somewhere with this situation.
Thanks for all of the input.
El G.
The gent in question, as I have already said, was a dignified, well dressed, erudite Canadian, who had clearly made his way to Selkirk to re-visit a scene of a wartime drama, if he was to be taken at face value.
I talked to him for a period of time. and I took him at face value.
He had already visited what he told me was the site and wanted to return with me to shoot some pictures of the area along with the views and presumably with him in some of the shots. We never got as far as that. We discussed possibility, location, cost, along with why he wanted the shots taken. Bear in mind, an old farmer from the area had memories of some kind of incident involving an aircraft during WW11.
The local press have now taken up the story so perhaps some new light will be thrown on the situation.
Whatever one might think about Selkirk nowadays and regardless of it's status, during wartime it was probably less than a one horse town with the bulk of men away at war.
If this person was as disoriented and confused as he would have been if he had been involved in such a trauma, it is hardly surprising that he wanted to return as fast as possible to his "own"
The reason why he found himself in such a situation my have contributed.
If you can thing of a better reason why a person of this calibre would travel a long distance to a little borders town to pay someone to photograph an empty field, then please enlighten me.
He was not senile, he was not doddery, he was exactly as I have described him several times.
What I am hoping for here, is that someone with closer access to records and a greater understanding of WW11 fighter operations can turn up some details.
There is already one possible lead that is being investigated and as I say The local press have taken up the story.
I hope we can get somewhere with this situation.
Thanks for all of the input.
El G.
More bang for your buck
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Still, given the cruising speed of a Spitfire is about 250MPH/220kts, it shouldn't have taken him over an hour to realized he'd overshot, even with a tailwind!
Thread Starter
We have now pretty well established where the gentelman was staying at the time he visited me. Enquiries are ongoing right now.
Trouble is, we are talking about a period between 1983 and 1987 or thereabouts. Will memories or records stretch that far back ?
Trouble is, we are talking about a period between 1983 and 1987 or thereabouts. Will memories or records stretch that far back ?