Spitfire crash landing in Scotland WW11
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I am convinced due the witness accounts that the forced landing/emergency landing happened - I would not call it a crash - a crash with the pilot still in his seat will (normaly) cause more that an easily fixed broken nose! And I also believe that the pilot was Norwegian - why should the police not tell the truth?
This incident could easily have been very trivial, and therefore not recorded.
In one of the posts it was mentioned that the wheels went down in a ditch and the aircraft therefore overturned. If this happened at low speed the damage may have been very limited not making a report necessary - after all there was a war going on with a large number of incidents/accidents.
I think that the ground crew just removed the wings in order to get enough space on the truck and on the roads- bearing in mind that the wingspan of a Spitfire is around 36 ft.
If the above is correct, i.e. a Norwegian force landed the aircraft - then how about mr. Raasch's story?
This incident could easily have been very trivial, and therefore not recorded.
In one of the posts it was mentioned that the wheels went down in a ditch and the aircraft therefore overturned. If this happened at low speed the damage may have been very limited not making a report necessary - after all there was a war going on with a large number of incidents/accidents.
I think that the ground crew just removed the wings in order to get enough space on the truck and on the roads- bearing in mind that the wingspan of a Spitfire is around 36 ft.
If the above is correct, i.e. a Norwegian force landed the aircraft - then how about mr. Raasch's story?
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 29th Jun 2012 at 22:44.
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Which brings us back full circle to the suggestion that we have the wrong Raasch
Airborne Aircrew earlier offered to search Ancestry.com
What would be useful would be a search on there for any Canadian-born men called Harold or Harry Raasch or Rasch, born in time for WW2, and who died in the 1990's. May be too recent to show up, but maybe not
Are there any Canadian census or electoral roll records open for viewing dating from the 1930's/40's/50's?
Airborne Aircrew earlier offered to search Ancestry.com
What would be useful would be a search on there for any Canadian-born men called Harold or Harry Raasch or Rasch, born in time for WW2, and who died in the 1990's. May be too recent to show up, but maybe not
Are there any Canadian census or electoral roll records open for viewing dating from the 1930's/40's/50's?
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 29th Jun 2012 at 22:38.
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Milo:
Ancestry's information will be limited in some areas and may be quite expansive in others... Census records are restricted so they may not be helpful but there are a lot of other records that might give clues - the problem here would be linking military etc. records to a "real human being"...
I'm quite willing to have a dig around I just need to know what information you want to start with.... I've become a bit of a sleuth on Ancestry so it might work... On the other hand, I have several "mysteries" in my family history that are mind numbing...
No, I am not talking about the identity of my father...
Ancestry's information will be limited in some areas and may be quite expansive in others... Census records are restricted so they may not be helpful but there are a lot of other records that might give clues - the problem here would be linking military etc. records to a "real human being"...
I'm quite willing to have a dig around I just need to know what information you want to start with.... I've become a bit of a sleuth on Ancestry so it might work... On the other hand, I have several "mysteries" in my family history that are mind numbing...
No, I am not talking about the identity of my father...
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I believe from memory you can do a general search to see if a specific name turns up in anyones family tree. Is it possible to see if a 20th century Harold/Harry Raasch/Rasch is on any Canadian family trees?
If we can establish that then we may have a start point
If you can do a census seach of the whole Canadian database that may turn something up as well. I'm guessing there won't be many - if any
At this stage the best we can try to do is establish the existance or otherwise of a Harold A Raasch in Canada. If theres no-one of that name in the census records, and no-one in a family tree search then that would be a reasonably conclusive negative. If the RCAF records also recorded a blank, then we know that "our" Raasch is lying.
If a third Raasch does turn up in those searches, then there is more work to do in identification
Of course we have to hope that the family name stayed constant. In Germany it appears to have been variable: Rasche/Rasch/Raschig/Raschen have all been recorded as variants
If we can establish that then we may have a start point
If you can do a census seach of the whole Canadian database that may turn something up as well. I'm guessing there won't be many - if any
At this stage the best we can try to do is establish the existance or otherwise of a Harold A Raasch in Canada. If theres no-one of that name in the census records, and no-one in a family tree search then that would be a reasonably conclusive negative. If the RCAF records also recorded a blank, then we know that "our" Raasch is lying.
If a third Raasch does turn up in those searches, then there is more work to do in identification
Of course we have to hope that the family name stayed constant. In Germany it appears to have been variable: Rasche/Rasch/Raschig/Raschen have all been recorded as variants
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 29th Jun 2012 at 23:50.
Thread Starter
I am naturally very happy that you guys are pushing on with the search.
Hopefully it will turn-up something meaningful.
My minor worry is, why would a Rev. by the name of Raasch, in the last known location of the man in question, acknowledge the fact that his father had visited me in Selkirk all these years ago, if in fact this man was not his father.
It seems to me that we have the right family, ay least one member of that family, and he ain't talkin !!!!
Hopefully it will turn-up something meaningful.
My minor worry is, why would a Rev. by the name of Raasch, in the last known location of the man in question, acknowledge the fact that his father had visited me in Selkirk all these years ago, if in fact this man was not his father.
It seems to me that we have the right family, ay least one member of that family, and he ain't talkin !!!!
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El Grifo,
So Tim Raasch acknowledged that the man who visited you in Selkirk was his father - did he also acknowledge that his father is identical to Lt. Col. Harold A Raasch USAF?
And did he know about his father's visits to Scotland?
In post #135 you say that mr. Raasch's daughter was well aware of her father's visits to Selkirk and the reason for these visits. How do you know that?
So Tim Raasch acknowledged that the man who visited you in Selkirk was his father - did he also acknowledge that his father is identical to Lt. Col. Harold A Raasch USAF?
And did he know about his father's visits to Scotland?
In post #135 you say that mr. Raasch's daughter was well aware of her father's visits to Selkirk and the reason for these visits. How do you know that?
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 30th Jun 2012 at 18:24.
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El Grifo,
Here are a couple of puzzling questions:
If the guy who came to you in your shop was an American having served in the USAAF during WW2 and NOT in the RAF, then his "Spitfire story" is nonsense - right?
Consequently he would be unable to find the field used for his alleged forced landing during WW2 - logical conclusion!
So, I wonder which objects in the Scottish countryside he would have asked you to photograph for him - have you thought about this?
Here are a couple of puzzling questions:
If the guy who came to you in your shop was an American having served in the USAAF during WW2 and NOT in the RAF, then his "Spitfire story" is nonsense - right?
Consequently he would be unable to find the field used for his alleged forced landing during WW2 - logical conclusion!
So, I wonder which objects in the Scottish countryside he would have asked you to photograph for him - have you thought about this?
Originally Posted by grebllaw123d
If the guy who came to you in your shop was an American having served in the USAAF during WW2 and NOT in the RAF, then his "Spitfire story" is nonsense - right?
Last edited by diginagain; 1st Jul 2012 at 18:38.
Thread Starter
Whilst I realise you are trying to help, I am not sure that you have read the full content of the thread.
He told me he was Canadian.
He made no reference to The USAAF
He spent several (more than six) years searching for the site.
I assumed he wanted me to photograph the site.
What more can I say. Go over the entire thread. It may help.
Cheers
El G.
Possibly because she sent a letter to the owner of the B+B to advise of his death. Please do keep up !!
He told me he was Canadian.
He made no reference to The USAAF
He spent several (more than six) years searching for the site.
I assumed he wanted me to photograph the site.
What more can I say. Go over the entire thread. It may help.
Cheers
El G.
In post #135 you say that mr. Raasch's daughter was well aware of her father's visits to Selkirk and the reason for these visits. How do you know that?
Last edited by El Grifo; 1st Jul 2012 at 18:47.
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And if you take those statements a face value, he cannot be Lt Col Harold A Raasch, the father of Tim Raasch - in which case the son's reticence in discussing this can be understood.
You can't really progress this until you can prove or disprove the existence of a Canadian with that name.
You can't really progress this until you can prove or disprove the existence of a Canadian with that name.
Thread Starter
Milo, this is as confusing for me as it is for everyone else.
I can only present the story as it was presented to me.
I have no answers, only questions.
The son appeared to accept that I was on the track of his father, re his many visits to Scotland, then he clammed-up.
Run with the ball, see what you can come up with, please !!
El G.
I can only present the story as it was presented to me.
I have no answers, only questions.
The son appeared to accept that I was on the track of his father, re his many visits to Scotland, then he clammed-up.
Run with the ball, see what you can come up with, please !!
El G.
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El Grifo mentions in #205 the following:
"It seems to me that we have the right family, at least one member of that family, and he ain't talkin !!!!"
It certainly seems to me too, at least with the information we got at this time, but if we go along this line, we have to accept that the father in the mentioned family was American and served in USAAF in Italy as a Bombardier, and for obvious reasons he could not have force landed a Spitfire in Scotland, i.e. his story does not make sense to me. And there would be no site to photograph.
BUT if we accept the story told by the guy entering El Grifo's shop, we must IMO find another mr. Raasch whose wartime records can fit the details in the story he told.
Agree with Milo to investigate the Canadian trail.
So, still more questions than answers!
"It seems to me that we have the right family, at least one member of that family, and he ain't talkin !!!!"
It certainly seems to me too, at least with the information we got at this time, but if we go along this line, we have to accept that the father in the mentioned family was American and served in USAAF in Italy as a Bombardier, and for obvious reasons he could not have force landed a Spitfire in Scotland, i.e. his story does not make sense to me. And there would be no site to photograph.
BUT if we accept the story told by the guy entering El Grifo's shop, we must IMO find another mr. Raasch whose wartime records can fit the details in the story he told.
Agree with Milo to investigate the Canadian trail.
So, still more questions than answers!
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 1st Jul 2012 at 20:08.
I keep watching this thread and googled Lt Col Harold A Raasch and found this Yahoo! Groups
Tim Raasch was looking for info about his dad and states that he died in 2000 so IIRC that doesn't match the gentleman you spoke to. However it also confirms that Tim's dad was in the 376st and was shot down in Romania in 1944.
Tim Raasch was looking for info about his dad and states that he died in 2000 so IIRC that doesn't match the gentleman you spoke to. However it also confirms that Tim's dad was in the 376st and was shot down in Romania in 1944.
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Yep, thats the bit of info that links the Rev Tim to his father, and we've also found evidence (though slim) of a PFC Harold A Raasch who as a groundcrew out in the far east......but...neither mans details fit the story
The USA social security death records indicate another Harold Raasch who died in Nebraska in 1992 (and whose social security number was issued in Nebraska). That may be the PFC, or a third man, but again it doesn't match the story
The problem is that there is no death record in the USA of anyone else of that name during the correct period. However would a Canadian dying in the USA have such a record?
Hopefully AA will be able to find something on the genealogy website with respect to any possible Canadians
The USA social security death records indicate another Harold Raasch who died in Nebraska in 1992 (and whose social security number was issued in Nebraska). That may be the PFC, or a third man, but again it doesn't match the story
The problem is that there is no death record in the USA of anyone else of that name during the correct period. However would a Canadian dying in the USA have such a record?
Hopefully AA will be able to find something on the genealogy website with respect to any possible Canadians
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 1st Jul 2012 at 20:13.
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Although it may not appear at time so be so, I am very grateful that you guys are taking the weight from my shoulders.
A weight that is as weights do, weighing me down !
A weight that is as weights do, weighing me down !
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Just found i little more info about Private Harold A Raasch - the guy serving in the far east:
http://files.usgwarchives.org/wi/mil...enli134gmt.txt
http://files.usgwarchives.org/wi/mil...enli134gmt.txt
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Now its getting even more surreal.
Both born 1924 in Wisconsin. Could it be the same guy? Could a PFC in the Pacific be commissioned as a bombardier Lt in Europe and then rise post war to Lt Col?
Two different serial numbers 16089455 and O-715095
Do USA serial numbers change on commission?
And most importantly - no death record. So if there are two, he either died overseas, or is still alive. So again, he's not our man - based on the story
And if he really did follow that route from PFC to Lt, then there really is no time for UK service
Both born 1924 in Wisconsin. Could it be the same guy? Could a PFC in the Pacific be commissioned as a bombardier Lt in Europe and then rise post war to Lt Col?
Two different serial numbers 16089455 and O-715095
Do USA serial numbers change on commission?
And most importantly - no death record. So if there are two, he either died overseas, or is still alive. So again, he's not our man - based on the story
And if he really did follow that route from PFC to Lt, then there really is no time for UK service
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 1st Jul 2012 at 20:41.
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Private H.A. Raasch..
Milo,
I am sure that there were 2 Harold A. Raasch's in the USAAF.
Look at the following link, which by the way has been presented earlier in this thread:
The 6th Bomb Group: Ground Crew Listing - 40 BS
General Order No. 10, issued 20 Feb 1946 indicates that H.A.R is PRIVATE.
I am sure that there were 2 Harold A. Raasch's in the USAAF.
Look at the following link, which by the way has been presented earlier in this thread:
The 6th Bomb Group: Ground Crew Listing - 40 BS
General Order No. 10, issued 20 Feb 1946 indicates that H.A.R is PRIVATE.
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 1st Jul 2012 at 21:30.
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Yep, you're right - I'd forgotten the date of that award notice. So its just coincidence - but no apparent record of death, but the guy who told the story is - according to his supposed daughter - dead
And the only death record we have within the correct time frame is the Lt Col....
And the only death record we have within the correct time frame is the Lt Col....
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 2nd Jul 2012 at 11:20.