It's May 1941, it's night, you have to land, but how?

[jamesinnewcastle]

Hi All

I'm not looking for reasons for the crash yet, but just to quell the interest. Fighter attack is only mentioned in one official document and gets bandied around a lot, it was however only described as "believed attacked" - the AHB has a copy of 765c which makes no mention of fighter attack - I have some pics of the crash and no fuselage or wing bullet holes - which doesn't mean much but really there is not much evidence one way or the other. The Court of Inquiry papers were burned with thousands of others but I think someone somewhere has a copy as I suspect that is where the photos came from! I've learned to take care over any evidence in books etc as one famous author has the crew killed a month before they actually were and has an 8th man make a fatal jump from the aircraft as it crashed only to be killed again some months later on another mission.

Spurlash - Great stuff, I had not realised that the moon could be at 25% and be below the horizon at the same time so you can't see it anyway - slaps head. What was your source for that information?

Fox - that's a good link - I have read it myself but not picked up the distance part. However to test the theory of distance viewing I have bought a paraffin lamp and have desperately tried to find a three mile distance between two points in the countryside (to avoid artificial lights) with a clear view between the two! Surprisingly difficult, three miles is a really long way! Also discovered that when it's really dark in the countryside you can only get 4 metres from your car before you fall into a pothole!

However, the darkness was, I assume, no surprise to the RAF and they must have had some way of flying down safely time after time or they would have lost every night bomber that took off. It's this landing method I am trying to determine, in some detail admittedly.

Thanks for the replies so far chaps
James

[Trim Stab]

Another thouught that occured to me, three miles out and 900ft would be about the point he selected landing flaps. He could have got an asymmetric extension, or a tailplane stall due to tailplane damage or icing picked up on the descent through cloud).

[aw ditor]

James',

You refer in your first para' to a Cranfield graduate, should that perhaps have been Cranwell? As someone who bashed' the circuit as an Oakington 5FTS Varsity QFI more times than I care to remember there is no doubt that Bar Hill was relatively speaking a "lump" on the 05' approach. I cannot recall any student frightening me getting too close to it, though plenty of others! The village of Dry Drayton is on a ridge and is almost in line with the 05' approach, so the aircraft striking the tree/ground there would tie-up. Perhaps he "ducked-under" a standard three degree approach? Oakington had a nasty habit of "fogging-out" early in a narrow band at right angles to 05 runway about 300 yards up the runway from the 05 threshold. This was due to a strip of very wet ground which was originally a drainage ditch in-filled during the construction of the grass runway. (As an aside, drainage for the planned new-town' of Northstowe on the site has been a major problem and has produced an extensive ring of balancing ponds, so the site is very "wet") I assume this was a 7 Squadron Stirling, in which case the Squadron Form 540, (Squadron Record Book') may be of help, also the Pilot's Notes for the Stirling which I believe are available in "repro" form.

AD'

[henry crun]

jamesinnewcastle: Have a browse through this thread, http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...evet-ww11.html

You will see the the originator and one or two others who contribute, flew at that time. Their recall of events that long ago is astonishing, and I am sure if you contact them they would be only too willing to help in whatever way they can.

If anyone can answer your questions with authority, it will will be Cliffnemo and 1 or 2 others.

[rvusa]

Assuming only visual cues, the pilot could obviously find the airfield using some kind of lighting, enough to set up a left hand circuit around 05. I will also assume that he used a 'standard' 1000' Agl circuit. Using compass, watch and visual cues from the flarepath he would, I would guess, have started a turn onto a base leg at around 3 miles, with U/C and partial flap, before a turn onto final.
At this point he crashed, for whatever reason, technical, battle damage or pilot induced.
I have a limited experience of landing on grass using 'goosenecks' only, but in light aircraft. Their use for judging approach path is very similar to using electrical lighting. Although fairly dim their visibility will have been aided, in fact, by a dark night and the 'blackout', which I assume was in operation? Closer in you get an estimation of range as you can see the flicker of the flame, but he didn't get that close!
If the pilot could see the flarepath from 3 miles then it should have been obvious to him that he was too low, which would seem to rule out an altimeter setting error, leaving the aforementioned, technical malfunction, aircraft damage or a pilot error/incapacity as the cause?
I await a verbal lashing from other 'youngsters' or, hopefully, a reply from someone who 'did it for real'

[Albert Driver]

James, my experience of landing using goosenecks is also very limited but in essence the system relies on the fact that the human eye is not very sensitive to a single dim light but can pick out a line of dim lights much more easily. I was surprised how effective they can be in good night weather conditions.

However they do rely entirely on being in the right place on the approach to be able to see and use them - as indeed do all night landing aids. And that of course is the whole point of the standard circuit - to orientate the aircraft in terms of heading, speed, configuration and height to the landing runway.

Your Stirling appears to have been in the right place in the circuit but (obviously) ultimately not the correct altitude. This could be because the pilot was unable to achieve or maintain that altitude, or mislead into flying at the wrong altitude, or temporarily unaware of his altitude.

We don't know your background or why you have this interest, but you have as you say put a lot of work into this project. Do you have any flying experience at all? If not, are you in a position to go down to the local flying club and ask to experience half an hour's worth of circuits to help you understand why so much emphasis is (still) placed on circuits in flying training? A circuit is still a circuit no matter how sophisticated or unsophisticated the aids used in constructing it and landing from it.

[jamesinnewcastle]

Hi All

Thanks again for all the comments:

Trim stab - My photo shows that the flaps on one wing had not been extended, however I don't have a photo of the other wing so theres a possibility.

AD: Yes Cranwell! I didn't mention Bar Hill, that was another poster. As you note the crash was at Dry Drayton which lies on a rising finger of land which sort of 'points' at the runway (the only one at the time). I haven't mentioned a 3 degree approach either, that was another poster, I don't know iif a 3 degree approach was what they did at that time - this is the sort of information that I am trying to find out. It's very interesting that you have flown the airfield - have you flown it at night? What would you do if it were 3am in the morning and the runway lights had failed?

henry crun: Thanks I shall be stalking those gentlemen soon!

rvusa: 'standard 1000 Agl circuit'? Can you point me to a more detailled explanation or is this general knowledge that I can easily find on the web? I have an AP (number I can't remember) which details a large amount about night landings and some procedures, etc. This is great but of course I am looking at a particular airfield and I know that people 'do their own things'. This document details approach to the field at 2000ft, circle at 1000ft but no clues as to hieght, or shape of the 'circle', etc. Its also states that only the identification lights should be used to request permission to land but I know that they used the radio. Another source of info then that needs a little back-up. I did mention earlier that I am trying to find a three mile stretch of countryside so I can see how far the light from a gooseneck would reach (I'm really short of a pilot, a plane, and 6 goosenecks - so I have to improvise!) Were you landing in darkness? How far do you estimate you could see the goosenecks from?

He could have started his decent on visual cue or I suppose he could have timed his flight from the field and the turn and worked out a rate of decent based on that - but I don't know.


Albert Driver: I'm an engineer but not a pilot. I'm looking into this as the aircraft crashed 30 yards from where my mother (to be) was sleeping. I am very interested to know how I wasn't 'killed' but once you start looking the thing grows into hundreds of interesting threads! Do you think that 3 miles out sounds about right? Was the 'standard' circuit in use in May 1941? What was it? (Actually I think that I am confusing 'circuit' with 'circling') I can see how you could fly along a runway, fly at a fixed speed for a fixed time, turn at a fixed rate and fly back along the opposite route (allowing for your turn), but hieght and descent are the things that I can't get the procedure for. I've done a number of 3D simulations for an amateur documentary I am doing but I really have no idea of the lighting - one is here:

Night Landing with Gooseneck Flares and Perimiter warning Lamps - YouTube

Thanks for all your replies so far - I have learned more

James

[Hipper]

Have you got the privately published book 'Snaith Days' by Keith S Ford. It deals with 51 squadron from 1942-45, so a bit later then your incident, but there's lots of interesting info in it.

Perhaps also some of the RAF DVDs may be useful, such as 'Target for Tonight' or the range of 'RAF at War' discs from the Imperial War Museum.

[jamesinnewcastle]

Hi Hipper

My posts are being regulated as the last one isn't yet on line so you may need to read a few posts back - I'm not sure if they are inserted in sequence. I just hope that the last one isn't missing.

I will look up the book you mention, thanks.

I have seen 'Target for Tonight' but I will look up 'RAF at War', interestingly the pilot that died at Dry Drayton appears in the propaganda film 'The Lion has Wings'!

James

[Momoe]

As already mentioned, although the goosenecks weren't very bright, the contrast against a very dark night in a black-out would have been sufficient.
The pilot was obviously experienced, Dry Drayton is on the extended runway line so he's lined up and that suggests that the goosenecks are visible.
If the plane was damaged and control was compromised, it would be common for the pilot to order the crew to bail out if he wasn't certain of getting it down safely.
Fuel starvation is a possibility, on finals there would be very little decision time, the intruder attack in the circuit is unlikely as radar equipped intruders weren't around until 1942/3.

[Green Flash]

james

Something else to consider is that he may not have been the only cab in the circuit or on finals. If the wave had got back more or less together there could have been lots of big 4 motors all trying to get in at once, possibly shot up, low on fuel, plus lost cabs landing at the first strip they saw. You might be set up for a nice straight in approach and find yourself in close formation with something else and have to take avoiding action which could compromise you. Indeed, there is a picture somewhere of a Whitley that landed at Kinloss at night and an Anson that had landed on top of the Whitley, in mid air! Both aircraft landed safely.

[Shackman]

James,

As someone who had an engine failure just after take off from Oakington (in a Varsity), I can certainly attest to the fact that the ridge behind Dry Drayton rapidly becomes a significant obstruction - or more precisely it was a tree on the ridge line that filled the windscreen for some time. However, that was take off, and when landing, even assymetric, we would be nowhere near the hill.

One thing you haven't mentioned - which may be quite significant - is whether the wreckage was spread out in a more or less straight line, indicating a 'relatively' controlled flight into the ground, which could come from a mis-set altimeter, or essentially all in one place, which is more likely to be 'uncontrolled' as in a spin in from low level as a result of previously unknown battle damage or pure disorientation on a low light night. We tend to forget just how dark it could be with a blackout in force and just a few runway lights (as well as possibly Bourne, Waterbeach, Mepal, Warboys et al all around). Flying and manouevring at low level over the sea at night with just a few ships lights around soon brings that home. Even recently I have had students flying circuits on 'good' nights get disorientated and just increase the angle of bank into a spiral dive through lack of attention to the instruments when turning finals and they were well rested and not returning from operations!

[Albert Driver]

If, as you suggest in your OP James, he was the first one home he would have had very few visual clues to follow in the black hole that night.

2.50am. Home early perhaps? Moon not yet up. Operation planned for an expected slightly later moonlight return? Airfield still preparing the last flares?

Gooseneck flares are good for marking a runway location and direction but give very little glidepath information. With conventional lights either side of a runway you have a shape to aim for. If that shape is long and thin you're too high, short and fat and you're too low.

With a single line of flares in complete darkness all you've got for glidepath is the apparent spacing between flares (which may not be perfectly even anyway) and the apparent length of the line (which may be compromised if the runway isn't level - common in wartime grass strips). Difficult to fly a stabilised approach with no other clues, and so easy to sink below the ideal glidepath.

It all reminds me of some good flying advice:

Let someone else have a go at it first and follow them if they make it safely!!

[jamesinnewcastle]

Hi All

Momoe: Good point about the bail out - the 765c form reveals that the pilot had called the tower on the R/T but had nothing to report. The radio he would have used had a range of between 30 and 50 miles so there is a point at which we know he was OK, unless he was being terribly British - that is one datum. So, how far out would he have been before using the radio - over to anyone to answer that - again it is this the sort of procedural data that I am after. I imagine that he would not have called too soon or the status of his permission could have changed or he might not actually have found the airfield and so why bother the tower? I suspect that he would have waited until he saw at least one visual clue, but I don't guess anymore.

Green Flash: See my first post, three Stirlings left Oakington, one came back quickly with electrical problems and never completed the raid. One was 15 minutes behind the one that crashed. There was a fire in one engine but as they would not have had much fuel the plane did not blaze. Just to gently put the post back on track - I'm not yet speculating just trying to find out the procedures.

Shackman: Very interesting to hear that the hill is significant - I can't know that sitting here at my PC of course so it's nice to get real flying feedback I'm sure that landing at night in 2012 can still be disorientating but the RAF landed hundreds of bombers at night early in the war when all there was were a few flickering goosenecks - I assume that there was a way of doing that which must have been relatively safe - I would like to find out what those procedures were if I can.

Albert Driver: He was on time, see above for details of who was in the air. Another poster earlier in this thread has suggested 25% moon but 17 degrees below the horizon at an angle that would have put it roughly on his left wing (Port? Yes please....). I've read in AP129 that the flares would have been 100 yards apart for a field with no flood light with just three lights in the 'crossbar' which was at the 'end' of the runway and not the start. The lights were 450yds apart where a flood light was used and in that case only two lights were used. That seems a long way but I believe that the floodlight was very powerful.

All comments appreciated gents

James

[Tinribs]

Oakington and Middleton St George

Odd how this thread fits my career

Flew from Oakington in 65 on Varsity course Correct about the hill. We simultated an engine failure in those days by the instructor throttling back an engine to an assessed zero thrust as a sign that it had failed. If the hill got too close, as it sometimes did, it was not unusual to ask the man for a little more power on the dead engine

Even up to the 80s we did night checks by swtiching off all the runway lights and landing on the red T alone

After leaving in 83 I spent 22years with BMI often operating from Teeside, Middleton St George. The airport hotel occiupies what was the Officers' mess. There is a fine statue of an airman outside the buidling and the Canadian flag flies high every day

Each year the "Old Boys" come back for a reunion and it must be said they are a fine example of real men ought to be to us all. They often bring their favourite bits of aeroplane with them, instrument panels, bomb door switches and the like and are very easy to talk to

I once asked one of them why, since they all had Canadian accents, their wives seemed to be British, he replied "spoils of war old boy". Says it all really

[brakedwell]

Did you ever see the M St G Officers Mess ghost?

[cliffnemo]

XMAS TREES

Hi Henry Crun,
Thanks for the 'reference' I needed cheering up after a bad prognosis.

I think I have read this thread thoroughly, and cannot find a reference to a Christmas Tree. This was a box having yellow screen (top) green screen
(middle) , red screen (bottom), and was quite bright. The object was to keep in the green to clear all obstructions. When nearer to the goose necks their apparent distance apart indicated height. I would suggest that goose necks gave more light than a hurricane lamp, as they flickered with a longer bright light. Also dark WAS dark during the war , as we had total blackout, and no 'light pollution' I carried out many night landings when wasting time at pre-afu on Tiger Moths and stationed at Kingstown Airfield , Carlisle. We had a satellite field, and it was,just a grass field. about ten miles North. of Carlisle No one seemed to have any trouble locating it and landing using Christmas Tree and goose necks . Yes they were only Tiger Moths but the principle is the same. By the way, the Christmas tree was adjusted to give a glide path clear of obstructions
I still have the landing drill notes for a Lancaster if you are interested, but that was late 1944

[jamesinnewcastle]

Hi Cliffnemo

I suspect that the landing methods changed rapidly during the war itself. What year were you landing using Christmas Trees? I am getting a lot of info from AP 129 (Dated 1938) but that only mentions goosenecks, glim lamps and chance lights.

On approach how close did you have to be to see the goosenecks? How high could you go before you lost sight of the goosenecks? Can you remember the pattern the goosenecks were arranged in and how many they were? Sorry I know that that is a very detailed question!

I would be very interested in receiving a copy of the Landing Drill notes that you mention! Happy to pay any costs involved.

James

[aw ditor]

"Christmas Trees." I suspect we were still using them as "Angle of Approach Indicators (AAIs') with a goose-neck flarepath; when plodding round the night-flying circuit in Piston Provosts at grass airfields such as Spitalgate. Although this was the mid 50s'! They seemed to work very well and kept you out of harms way in the "greens". Whether Oakington used them on the night in question is a matter for conjecture, or more research?

[cliffnemo]

Take off drill

Herewith take off drill for Lancaster , ex R.A.F School of Engineering, St Athlan. circa late 1944. Will post landing drill later and answer other questions later.( loaded the wrong page from my exercise book)


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