QRA question
Is it rumoured that Concorde was used as a high speed intercept target on returning from all points east, also Q aircraft did not get near it.
Regards.
Air pig.
Regards.
Air pig.
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I'm sure I read somewhere that when Concorde was doing supersonic test runs on the North Sea racetrack that it was offered to NATO as a high speed target, confined to simple stern conversions. And I think that only the Lightning got anywhere near it. I have no doubt that someone will be along forthwith with the gun camera photo's!
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During the "Konfrontasi" in the Far East, it was impractical to hold CR on Javelin QRA for protracted periods, on account of high temperatures. FEAF decided that Readiness 10 was too long a reaction time, so there was a kind of Dutch auction, resulting an a crew-room state of Alert 7. It was unusual to take longer than 5 minutes to get airborne, though, whether the crew was awake or sleeping when the scramble was ordered.
As we didn't have telebrief one crew member would have been onboard monitoring the RT.
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I am not sure if Concorde was ever embellished but I do know that the MOD hired it, or used it, when it was doing high speed runs in the North Sea. I don't know if it was also offered to NATO (not heard that) but it was certainly hacked at by every Lightning station. I don't know the results.
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PN, thanks. When i say offered I meant that the MOD was aware of the times and routes that Conc was running and as long as no one got in the way or rammed it then they were free to have a go. Happy to be updated by those with first hand knowledge.
Re: Concorde
I know Mike "SIDITIO" Hale (SIDITIO - Seen It Done It Ticked It Off or plain "Sid") well and he explained that he hired a floor polisher to polish his Lightning all over prior to the attempt. Knowing Sid and how he might have embellished the story about polishing, I asked his wife in the Mess one night if it was true. She replied that it was and that she had also helped out!
"Sid" Hale has just been granted a MBE in the New Years' Honours List for his varied contributions to aviation over the years - AD, Trg and Gliders plus running the Low Flying Cell.
He must be one of the last Lightning Jockeys in the RAF - the only other I know of is on secondment in Oman.
LJ
October, 2004
LIGHTNING vs CONCORDE
The Lightning that once overtook Concorde was described as 'the best of the best' by Flt Lt Mike Hale at the roll-out ceremony for XR749 at Teeside Airport on September 28th 1995. Now an instructor with 56 Sqn at Coningsby, Mike flew 80 sorties in XR749 after the aircraft was allocated to 11 Squadron at Binbrook. He has a particular affection for the aircraft: "The Lightning was an exceptional aircraft in every respect, but XR749 was one of the best of the best. It is probably the best aircraft that I will ever have had the privilege to fly. Because of her tail code BM, she was known as 'Big Mother', although the tail code changed to BO for her last few months on 11 before joining the LTF in January 1985. She was a very hot ship, even for a Lightning. She remained my aircraft for all her time on 11 Sqn despite my being entitled to an F6 as I moved up the squadron pecking order. I invariably asked for her to be allocated to me for the major exercises such as MALLET BLOW, OSEX, and ELDER FOREST despite her being a short range F3 - there were invariably plenty of tankers about!"
His memories include the time in April 1984, during a squadron exchange at Binbrook, when he and XR749 participated in unofficial time-to-height and acceleration trials against F-104 Starfighters from Aalborg. The Lightnings won all races easily, with the exception of the low level supersonic acceleration, which was a dead-heat. This is not surprising when the records show that the year before on one sortie XR749 accelerated to Mach 2.3 (1500 mph) in September 1983.
It was also in 1984, during a major NATO exercise that he intercepted an American U-2 at 66,000 ft, a height which they had previously considered safe from interception. Shortly before this intercept, he flew a zoom climb to 88,000 ft and, later that year, he was able to sustain FL550 while flying subsonic. Life was not entirely without problems, however, as in a three month period his No 2 engine seized in flight and its replacement failed during a take-off when intake panelling on the inside of the aircraft became detached and was sucked into the engine.
In April 1985, British Airways were trialling a Concorde up and down the North Sea. When they offered it as a target to NATO fighters, Mike and his team spent the night before in the hangar polishing XR749 which he borrowed from the LTF for the occasion, and the next day overhauled Concorde at 57,000 ft and travelling at Mach 2.2 by flying a stern conversion intercept. "Everyone had a bash - F-15s, F-16s, F-14s, Mirages, F-104s - but only the Lightning managed to overhaul Concorde from behind".
In October 1985, XR749 represented the LTF on the tenth anniversary of that unit's formation. It was given a new colour scheme - light grey underside, dark grey upperside, with the spine and tail fin dark blue. It was the only Lightning to be so coloured, and then only for two months, but that is now its permanent livery at Teeside Airport.
LIGHTNING vs CONCORDE
The Lightning that once overtook Concorde was described as 'the best of the best' by Flt Lt Mike Hale at the roll-out ceremony for XR749 at Teeside Airport on September 28th 1995. Now an instructor with 56 Sqn at Coningsby, Mike flew 80 sorties in XR749 after the aircraft was allocated to 11 Squadron at Binbrook. He has a particular affection for the aircraft: "The Lightning was an exceptional aircraft in every respect, but XR749 was one of the best of the best. It is probably the best aircraft that I will ever have had the privilege to fly. Because of her tail code BM, she was known as 'Big Mother', although the tail code changed to BO for her last few months on 11 before joining the LTF in January 1985. She was a very hot ship, even for a Lightning. She remained my aircraft for all her time on 11 Sqn despite my being entitled to an F6 as I moved up the squadron pecking order. I invariably asked for her to be allocated to me for the major exercises such as MALLET BLOW, OSEX, and ELDER FOREST despite her being a short range F3 - there were invariably plenty of tankers about!"
His memories include the time in April 1984, during a squadron exchange at Binbrook, when he and XR749 participated in unofficial time-to-height and acceleration trials against F-104 Starfighters from Aalborg. The Lightnings won all races easily, with the exception of the low level supersonic acceleration, which was a dead-heat. This is not surprising when the records show that the year before on one sortie XR749 accelerated to Mach 2.3 (1500 mph) in September 1983.
It was also in 1984, during a major NATO exercise that he intercepted an American U-2 at 66,000 ft, a height which they had previously considered safe from interception. Shortly before this intercept, he flew a zoom climb to 88,000 ft and, later that year, he was able to sustain FL550 while flying subsonic. Life was not entirely without problems, however, as in a three month period his No 2 engine seized in flight and its replacement failed during a take-off when intake panelling on the inside of the aircraft became detached and was sucked into the engine.
In April 1985, British Airways were trialling a Concorde up and down the North Sea. When they offered it as a target to NATO fighters, Mike and his team spent the night before in the hangar polishing XR749 which he borrowed from the LTF for the occasion, and the next day overhauled Concorde at 57,000 ft and travelling at Mach 2.2 by flying a stern conversion intercept. "Everyone had a bash - F-15s, F-16s, F-14s, Mirages, F-104s - but only the Lightning managed to overhaul Concorde from behind".
In October 1985, XR749 represented the LTF on the tenth anniversary of that unit's formation. It was given a new colour scheme - light grey underside, dark grey upperside, with the spine and tail fin dark blue. It was the only Lightning to be so coloured, and then only for two months, but that is now its permanent livery at Teeside Airport.
I know Mike "SIDITIO" Hale (SIDITIO - Seen It Done It Ticked It Off or plain "Sid") well and he explained that he hired a floor polisher to polish his Lightning all over prior to the attempt. Knowing Sid and how he might have embellished the story about polishing, I asked his wife in the Mess one night if it was true. She replied that it was and that she had also helped out!
"Sid" Hale has just been granted a MBE in the New Years' Honours List for his varied contributions to aviation over the years - AD, Trg and Gliders plus running the Low Flying Cell.
He must be one of the last Lightning Jockeys in the RAF - the only other I know of is on secondment in Oman.
LJ
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I'm sure I read somewhere that when Concorde was doing supersonic test runs on the North Sea racetrack that it was offered to NATO as a high speed target, confined to simple stern conversions. And I think that only the Lightning got anywhere near it. I have no doubt that someone will be along forthwith with the gun camera photo's!
There were set points and times which the Sqns used to drop and tankers and accelerate and climb to acquire at the pre-planned points. All tick in the box tuff, to put money in the pocket of BA before the charter market picked up.
Only remarkable point was the Binbrook Lightning with a radio failure which went to it's preset point (and ignoring the MRSA), not only acquired but did a stern intercept which, IIRC, was confirmed on the film.....
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D-State's post #29 brought back many memories. Ah, yes, that Northern Q.
The Mighty Eight's GC crewroom overflowing with linies, most of them visitors. Hooter goes with the usual '8 Sqn QRA Scramble, 8 Sqn Q...' etc, etc. Q was a regular event in those days and everyone involved had the 'Q twitch', raring to go at the first keying of the tannoy.
But on this day...the Senior Squadron had to ensure the Junior knew its place.
Four of the Senior Squadron members bidding their Bridge hands. Q scramble on the tannoy. Senior Squadron guys ever so calmly carry on. Junior visitors stare on agog and baffled. Chief shift boss stroles through and asks the Bridge party if they could do the see-off. 'No probs', bidding finished, a couple of finesses, and made. Stand up and slooowwly make way to the aircraft, cooooly get everything up and running, crew arive, start and depart. Back to Bridge and carry on smoothly. Great when a plan comes together.
The poor F4 guys just couldn't put it together. Well, they wern't to know that our average 'call-to-off' was circa 15 minutes ish, most of the delay being the TACO getting his brief.
Just awfully glad we only bid three Hearts and not 6 Spades...we would have had to run. That would have spoiled the moment.
camlobe
The Mighty Eight's GC crewroom overflowing with linies, most of them visitors. Hooter goes with the usual '8 Sqn QRA Scramble, 8 Sqn Q...' etc, etc. Q was a regular event in those days and everyone involved had the 'Q twitch', raring to go at the first keying of the tannoy.
But on this day...the Senior Squadron had to ensure the Junior knew its place.
Four of the Senior Squadron members bidding their Bridge hands. Q scramble on the tannoy. Senior Squadron guys ever so calmly carry on. Junior visitors stare on agog and baffled. Chief shift boss stroles through and asks the Bridge party if they could do the see-off. 'No probs', bidding finished, a couple of finesses, and made. Stand up and slooowwly make way to the aircraft, cooooly get everything up and running, crew arive, start and depart. Back to Bridge and carry on smoothly. Great when a plan comes together.
The poor F4 guys just couldn't put it together. Well, they wern't to know that our average 'call-to-off' was circa 15 minutes ish, most of the delay being the TACO getting his brief.
Just awfully glad we only bid three Hearts and not 6 Spades...we would have had to run. That would have spoiled the moment.
camlobe
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Sadly Binbrooks aprons have just succumbed to being Recycled.
End of the line for Binbrooks Flight Line - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
End of the line for Binbrooks Flight Line - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
Saturn profile? As I recall this was max power acceleration and climbing turn from low level to 25K plus then further acceleration for a subsonic high flyer up to 48K.
A Concorde intercept would be more likely a front quarter Red Top attack at M1.5, thus the setup could be quite difficult with a closure rate of M3.5 ?? Then there was Coriolis !!!
AFAIR Red Top was not released for QRA use for some time after the squadrons were re-equipped; any reason why – excluding missile fin problems.
A Concorde intercept would be more likely a front quarter Red Top attack at M1.5, thus the setup could be quite difficult with a closure rate of M3.5 ?? Then there was Coriolis !!!
AFAIR Red Top was not released for QRA use for some time after the squadrons were re-equipped; any reason why – excluding missile fin problems.
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Tiger_Mate, as a former AD WC my answers to you questions
A nice photo that would have been most usefull of late. A few further questions for the Air Defenders if I may: I would like to paint a similar painting that includes either AEW Shackleton or Canberra T17 along with a fighter that will probably be F4.
Are there any circumstances when these aircraft would have joined up at altitude or were they autonomous operators?
Canberra all altitudes and weather day and night. Shack mostly affil sorties at L/L again day/night and all weather, but was intercepted (at M/L for a Shack) when they were RTB in Transit.
Is 'Chaff' visible at height?
Did the T17 execute any dynamic manouvres when playing?
Oh yes when part of Ex or in brief or feeling their oats. But most QRA embelish PI's were usually straight and level. Most memerable was a visual spot of Canberra going to N of Peterhead power Station stack and F4 going S of it both at high angles of bank.
If civilian airliners were used for PI; how close to the airliners would a fighter get?
In old days if Civy pilot and controller were happy, Interceptor was allowed to a 200ft bubble officially. Not sure these days as I've been out for over 6 years.
How often does such a scenario be it practice or real involve IMC flight?
With the weather in the UK, IMC intercepts were practiced all the time. Certainly remember having to hunt for targets/victims during bad weather. System used to be that you could intercept any VFR with military modes and codes. Bad weather usually sent us to the Civy/Mil ATC units, asking if their high or medium level traffic was willing to be embelished. If an actual QRA, most would start above the weather and then sometimes start down dependant on events.
Regards
Trap One
A nice photo that would have been most usefull of late. A few further questions for the Air Defenders if I may: I would like to paint a similar painting that includes either AEW Shackleton or Canberra T17 along with a fighter that will probably be F4.
Are there any circumstances when these aircraft would have joined up at altitude or were they autonomous operators?
Canberra all altitudes and weather day and night. Shack mostly affil sorties at L/L again day/night and all weather, but was intercepted (at M/L for a Shack) when they were RTB in Transit.
Is 'Chaff' visible at height?
Did the T17 execute any dynamic manouvres when playing?
Oh yes when part of Ex or in brief or feeling their oats. But most QRA embelish PI's were usually straight and level. Most memerable was a visual spot of Canberra going to N of Peterhead power Station stack and F4 going S of it both at high angles of bank.
If civilian airliners were used for PI; how close to the airliners would a fighter get?
In old days if Civy pilot and controller were happy, Interceptor was allowed to a 200ft bubble officially. Not sure these days as I've been out for over 6 years.
How often does such a scenario be it practice or real involve IMC flight?
With the weather in the UK, IMC intercepts were practiced all the time. Certainly remember having to hunt for targets/victims during bad weather. System used to be that you could intercept any VFR with military modes and codes. Bad weather usually sent us to the Civy/Mil ATC units, asking if their high or medium level traffic was willing to be embelished. If an actual QRA, most would start above the weather and then sometimes start down dependant on events.
Regards
Trap One
Last edited by trap one; 3rd Jan 2012 at 07:03.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
If civilian airliners were used for PI; how close to the airliners would a fighter get?
Not saying it was never done, BA Xmas flights for orphans getting intercepted is one type we used to get asked to intercept (Merry Xmas kids and see the F4 on our port wing!); Air Anglia used to get offended if they weren't intercepted. And if QRA was loitering with Saxa with Bear F's playing north of the ADR, then they'd "intercept with caution", the transatlantic traffic for practice and to fill the hours.
But all prohibited by the book.
The one time the sh*t hit the fan was when Q1 jocularily claimed a Korean Airlines 747 on his report after one such Q trip. The reports going not only to HQSTC but also SACEUR. Unfortunately it was only a few months after the Russians had shot down a Korean Airlines 747.
Several days of sitting making transcripts of radio tapes, radar tracings and report writing later it didn't seem so funny to anyone else involved........
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Trap One,
There were many occasions where the Shack and the F4 worked together. The old saw plan as an 8, walk as a 4, taxi as a pair . . . applied to the F4 as much as the Tonka.
We frequently acted as both target and controller for a single F4. Quite easy to control as we knew where the target was and only had to find the interceptor
That was easy too as long as he squawked.
But for a painting would you care to try your hand an a night painting?
One night, no moon, viz pretty dark, suspect oil leak on No 2. Any visual traces would have been on the outboard side of the cowling.
Ask F4 if he carried a torch. He did. Could he have a look? He would.
What we had assumed was that the might F4 would carry a mega Q-type search light. What he didn't tell us was it was the Navs tiny pocket torch with a range of less than 3 feet with a red filter.
Anyway Biggles slows down and eases in, he is flying nose high with the radome between No 1 and 2 and probably only inches behind the props.
I am sure with artistic licence you could provide enough illumination with anti-colls etc.
There were many occasions where the Shack and the F4 worked together. The old saw plan as an 8, walk as a 4, taxi as a pair . . . applied to the F4 as much as the Tonka.
We frequently acted as both target and controller for a single F4. Quite easy to control as we knew where the target was and only had to find the interceptor
That was easy too as long as he squawked.But for a painting would you care to try your hand an a night painting?
One night, no moon, viz pretty dark, suspect oil leak on No 2. Any visual traces would have been on the outboard side of the cowling.
Ask F4 if he carried a torch. He did. Could he have a look? He would.
What we had assumed was that the might F4 would carry a mega Q-type search light. What he didn't tell us was it was the Navs tiny pocket torch with a range of less than 3 feet with a red filter.
Anyway Biggles slows down and eases in, he is flying nose high with the radome between No 1 and 2 and probably only inches behind the props.
I am sure with artistic licence you could provide enough illumination with anti-colls etc.
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Happy days
QRA tales. Walking to the HAS (or housey) in the FI every 6 hours or so to keep the INs company and warm them up...Pilots never volunteered for this one!
Being sat on a camp bed in VAS at Honington having just woken up. Pilot tells me he has spoken to those on high and all is quiet...as he reached the letter 't' the hooter went! Airborne in the required time but without my morning pee!....amazing how much an 'Aircrew Bag Relief' can hold. Then flew for several hours...overhead Lossie we went, then back again as we RTB to Honington, land, only to turn the jet and fly back to Lossie for the 8: 8 : 88. Hence we made a late arrival at happy hour!
Flying QRA in the gap to be told high speed contact closing from the West. Much consternation!...beak to beak we go, pick it up on the bogle scope and yes he is fast, very fast! At TESS range the pilot centres the black dot, I make out a fighter type, and we end up with us doing a 'Top Gun' style canopy to canopy pass with a fully armed F14 off a far distant USN carrier! Interesting.
The only time I ever did a Phase Three Visual ID for 'real' was when we were sent off on a 'jolly' mission to escort 2 Bears inbound to Fairford Airshow. What started off as a jolly jape ended up with us sat off the wing formating on the flashing red light to be followed by a breakaway manoeuvre and a re-attack! The pilot in the other F4 (I cannot tell you that it was the Sqn Boss for obvious reasons) had an airmiss filed against him!!...no worries though he made Air Rank!.
I always like to relate the tale told to me of the young thrusting first tourist pilot who, on first QRA at night, tells the hairy old Nav that he is going to have some fun with the Bear and proceeds to turn his lights off. Feeling smug for a few seconds until the Bear does likewise! Young pilot yelps and the Nav quietly tells him 'Stop being a Numpty and put your bl**dy lights back on' to which he did and then...so did the Bear.
Finally, in one liners one Friday afternoon at 1/4 past five and QWI Leader states that the Squadron "Should be doing more 'Lights Out' Practice Intercepts" At which point a gruff voice from a hairy old Spec Aircrew Pilot in the back replies "Lets see if we can get it right with the 'Lights On' first!!"
Happy Days! : o )
Being sat on a camp bed in VAS at Honington having just woken up. Pilot tells me he has spoken to those on high and all is quiet...as he reached the letter 't' the hooter went! Airborne in the required time but without my morning pee!....amazing how much an 'Aircrew Bag Relief' can hold. Then flew for several hours...overhead Lossie we went, then back again as we RTB to Honington, land, only to turn the jet and fly back to Lossie for the 8: 8 : 88. Hence we made a late arrival at happy hour!
Flying QRA in the gap to be told high speed contact closing from the West. Much consternation!...beak to beak we go, pick it up on the bogle scope and yes he is fast, very fast! At TESS range the pilot centres the black dot, I make out a fighter type, and we end up with us doing a 'Top Gun' style canopy to canopy pass with a fully armed F14 off a far distant USN carrier! Interesting.
The only time I ever did a Phase Three Visual ID for 'real' was when we were sent off on a 'jolly' mission to escort 2 Bears inbound to Fairford Airshow. What started off as a jolly jape ended up with us sat off the wing formating on the flashing red light to be followed by a breakaway manoeuvre and a re-attack! The pilot in the other F4 (I cannot tell you that it was the Sqn Boss for obvious reasons) had an airmiss filed against him!!...no worries though he made Air Rank!.
I always like to relate the tale told to me of the young thrusting first tourist pilot who, on first QRA at night, tells the hairy old Nav that he is going to have some fun with the Bear and proceeds to turn his lights off. Feeling smug for a few seconds until the Bear does likewise! Young pilot yelps and the Nav quietly tells him 'Stop being a Numpty and put your bl**dy lights back on' to which he did and then...so did the Bear.
Finally, in one liners one Friday afternoon at 1/4 past five and QWI Leader states that the Squadron "Should be doing more 'Lights Out' Practice Intercepts" At which point a gruff voice from a hairy old Spec Aircrew Pilot in the back replies "Lets see if we can get it right with the 'Lights On' first!!"
Happy Days! : o )
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One dark wet night the 'hooter went for an exercise with the mighty Phantom F4's. With about six A/C fully fuelled and armed with thier engines running 'Oscar' decided to fire a 'Sidewinder' at the groundcrew and just missed. The aircraft was impounded for further invest, six months later it was given back to us with no reason found for it's transgression. I was in charge of the groundcrew and we were taking over 'Q' for the next seven days. We had 'Oscar' on the arming point with the crew doing an acceptance check, it was fully fuelled and armed with all the pins removed, sound familiar. The pilot then asked me to put the tractor on the front and push 'Oscar' back into the Q Shed whith the engines running to keep the INAS aligned, I said that I would just put the Rocket Motor Pins in whilst I did the Push Back. He told me not to as he would have to come off 'State' if I did. I told him about the history of 'Oscar' and I was not willing to endanger me or my men. He then threatened me with 20 years inside for disobeying an order, I just said that it would be prefreable to being dead. He said that he was going to sort me out and sent for the Wing Co. He came out and I explained what had occured, he spoke to the pilot over the head-set and then asked me if I was happy to push back with the rocket pins in; I agreed and pushed the a/c back into the sheds and then removed the pins.
The pilot was supposed to spend the next 24 hours on 'Q' but as soon as 'Oscar' was put to bed he was replaced and I never had the pleasure of his company on 'Q'.
The good old days
The pilot was supposed to spend the next 24 hours on 'Q' but as soon as 'Oscar' was put to bed he was replaced and I never had the pleasure of his company on 'Q'.
The good old days
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Four types, your F14 story reminds me we had something like that too. I think it was in the Shack days. F4 well west of Benbec so we had it and the fast movers mixing it.