The C27's are a coming
My compliments to the RAAF.
12 H models effectively now 6 C17s. Capability increase
?? Bonus now 10 C27. We could argue all night, but at least these are useful for the real world not just PNG/FNQ. (Capability increase in my book)
Both not a bad upgrade, PLUS there's now a spare 8 KA350s floating around.
Nifty work to get nice new modern planes and some bonus King Airs for 3 FTS/streaming/whatever you want to call it face the facts it's now how we get kids ready to fly multi-crew multi-eng automation because god knows 2FTS doesn't do it.
12 H models effectively now 6 C17s. Capability increase
?? Bonus now 10 C27. We could argue all night, but at least these are useful for the real world not just PNG/FNQ. (Capability increase in my book)
Both not a bad upgrade, PLUS there's now a spare 8 KA350s floating around.
Nifty work to get nice new modern planes and some bonus King Airs for 3 FTS/streaming/whatever you want to call it face the facts it's now how we get kids ready to fly multi-crew multi-eng automation because god knows 2FTS doesn't do it.
Nifty work to get nice new modern planes and some bonus King Airs for 3 FTS/streaming/whatever you want to call it face the facts it's now how we get kids ready to fly multi-crew multi-eng automation because god knows 2FTS doesn't do it.
The goal of 2FTS is to graduate a student who is in theory capable of passing 79SQN, nothing more. The multi-crew/engine training is and always has been done on the OCU.
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Nifty work to get nice new modern planes and some bonus King Airs for 3 FTS/streaming/whatever you want to call it face the facts it's now how we get kids ready to fly multi-crew multi-eng automation because god knows 2FTS doesn't do it.
Definitely know what I am talking about. You may not though.
Not criticizing the instructors, just the system. Just because it has always been this way doesn't Mean it should be. Come back when you can accept change when it's necessary.
Crm and automation are the core skills of most of the raaf's pilots, but we use big swept wing jets to teach. Apparently 2 dedicated training sqns is not enough for the knucks, the schools need to be set up for their convenience as well.
Remember the experience levels in the non qfi workforce that mentors the boggies after opcon has dropped to a tiny fraction of what it was even 10 years ago. Like it or not the training system needs to prep these guys better or it will come home to roost soon.
Will be interested to see how the raaf structures training when the Ucavs take over post f35.
Not criticizing the instructors, just the system. Just because it has always been this way doesn't Mean it should be. Come back when you can accept change when it's necessary.
Crm and automation are the core skills of most of the raaf's pilots, but we use big swept wing jets to teach. Apparently 2 dedicated training sqns is not enough for the knucks, the schools need to be set up for their convenience as well.
Remember the experience levels in the non qfi workforce that mentors the boggies after opcon has dropped to a tiny fraction of what it was even 10 years ago. Like it or not the training system needs to prep these guys better or it will come home to roost soon.
Will be interested to see how the raaf structures training when the Ucavs take over post f35.
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It seems AIRBUS isn't too happy
A major Defence contractor has accused Defence Minister, Stephen Smith, of failing to tell the truth when he said there had been a competition to choose Australia's next battlefield airlifter.
"Airbus Military is obliged to place on the public record our disappointment at the Minister's choice of words," a spokesman said. "There was no tender process and certainly no competition."
Mr Smith, responding to a specific question at a press conference yesterday, said there had been a competition between Airbus Military's C295 and the Alenia C-27J. "We down-selected the C27J," he said.
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"Whenever a choice is made between competitors, there is always someone who's pleased with the outcome and someone who's disappointed. We've done the due diligence and we've come to the conclusion that the C-27 was the preferred choice for us."
Airbus Military says due diligence was lacking and that Defence is spending three times as much money for planes that can't be delivered before 2015.
"Defence seems to have rejected its own tried, tested and proven process of evaluating competing platforms," the spokesman said.
"Selection of the C-27J for $1.4 billion appears to have been based largely on the RAAFs own desktop assessments. This effort falls short of a full evaluation process."
Airbus said it could have had planes ready for delivery in six months - not three years - and that they would have cost a third of what is going to paid for the C-27J.
"Despite Airbus Military expending considerable resources responding to inquiries and requests for rudimentary information we are concerned the outcome may have been predetermined from the start.
An industry insider said there had been plenty of time to conduct a rigorous and formal competition between the two planes - the Rudd Government retired the Caribous, which the new aircraft will replace, in 2009 and the ADF has been having to make do in the meantime.
"The Minister says 10 C27Js will cost $1.4 billion - isn't that close to or even more than what you would pay for a JSF," he said.
"My understanding is nine of the 10 Australian aircraft are ones the US (which has mothballed its C-27J fleet) is no longer taking. I believe the US price was around $30 million or $31 million a unit (roughly the same as the C295). Why are they costing us so much?"
The Canberra Times has sought comment from Mr Smith's office on the Airbus Military claims.
Read more: Airbus accuses Smith of lying about Defence tender
Are we getting the mothballed US fleet ?
"Airbus Military is obliged to place on the public record our disappointment at the Minister's choice of words," a spokesman said. "There was no tender process and certainly no competition."
Mr Smith, responding to a specific question at a press conference yesterday, said there had been a competition between Airbus Military's C295 and the Alenia C-27J. "We down-selected the C27J," he said.
Advertisement: Story continues below
"Whenever a choice is made between competitors, there is always someone who's pleased with the outcome and someone who's disappointed. We've done the due diligence and we've come to the conclusion that the C-27 was the preferred choice for us."
Airbus Military says due diligence was lacking and that Defence is spending three times as much money for planes that can't be delivered before 2015.
"Defence seems to have rejected its own tried, tested and proven process of evaluating competing platforms," the spokesman said.
"Selection of the C-27J for $1.4 billion appears to have been based largely on the RAAFs own desktop assessments. This effort falls short of a full evaluation process."
Airbus said it could have had planes ready for delivery in six months - not three years - and that they would have cost a third of what is going to paid for the C-27J.
"Despite Airbus Military expending considerable resources responding to inquiries and requests for rudimentary information we are concerned the outcome may have been predetermined from the start.
An industry insider said there had been plenty of time to conduct a rigorous and formal competition between the two planes - the Rudd Government retired the Caribous, which the new aircraft will replace, in 2009 and the ADF has been having to make do in the meantime.
"The Minister says 10 C27Js will cost $1.4 billion - isn't that close to or even more than what you would pay for a JSF," he said.
"My understanding is nine of the 10 Australian aircraft are ones the US (which has mothballed its C-27J fleet) is no longer taking. I believe the US price was around $30 million or $31 million a unit (roughly the same as the C295). Why are they costing us so much?"
The Canberra Times has sought comment from Mr Smith's office on the Airbus Military claims.
Read more: Airbus accuses Smith of lying about Defence tender
Are we getting the mothballed US fleet ?
Last edited by 500N; 11th May 2012 at 20:29.
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I remember the RAAF having a look at the CASA aircraft in the early 90's at RAAF Richmond.
It stood at in front of the 1 AMTDU (Air Movements Training and Development Unit: Royal Australian Air Force)
hangar for a few weeks completing load/air drop trials.
I asked one of the RAAF engineers what his thoughts were and (from memory) he said, "it's alright......a bit soft though....wouldn't last long in the bush and it's biggest problem?....an Aussie grunt in parachute rig cannot jump out of the para doors, there too small in both height and width! In essence it's a Hyundai when we need a Toyota".
It stood at in front of the 1 AMTDU (Air Movements Training and Development Unit: Royal Australian Air Force)
hangar for a few weeks completing load/air drop trials.
I asked one of the RAAF engineers what his thoughts were and (from memory) he said, "it's alright......a bit soft though....wouldn't last long in the bush and it's biggest problem?....an Aussie grunt in parachute rig cannot jump out of the para doors, there too small in both height and width! In essence it's a Hyundai when we need a Toyota".
Last edited by Flyingblind; 11th May 2012 at 23:13.
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it's now how we get kids ready to fly multi-crew multi-eng automation because god knows 2FTS doesn't do it.
The ADF has never had a dedicated M-E training capability such as you suggest, however we seem to get by.
Nevertheless I agree with your assertion that a separate M-E training system would be advantageous. However there must be a commensurate reduction of the length of OPCONs. A secondary task for such a unit could be ferrying around ADF personnel rather than using operational types as personal taxis for senior officers as is currently the case.
Last edited by Captain Sand Dune; 11th May 2012 at 23:25.
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For what we need the C27 the is a good airplane and will do the job well. The USAF which operated a squadron of early C 27's were very happy with their performance. They will serve us well as did the Caribou.
Airbus antics do not impress many of us and I suspect we are going to find out with our tankers how good their support is.
The problem is the c295 is a Woolworths solution and I doubt if it will hack the grade.
Airbus need to understand that their antics will not cut the metal. It is real simple the C27 is a better aircraft.
regards
Col
Airbus antics do not impress many of us and I suspect we are going to find out with our tankers how good their support is.
The problem is the c295 is a Woolworths solution and I doubt if it will hack the grade.
Airbus need to understand that their antics will not cut the metal. It is real simple the C27 is a better aircraft.
regards
Col
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Originally Posted by Airbus suit
Defence seems to have rejected its own tried, tested and proven process of evaluating competing platforms
500N - - - nope, new builds apparently.
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Good, because I would hate to think we were buying US Cast off / moth balled aircraft which for some reason I just think would have problems !!! LOL
Good, because I would hate to think we were buying US Cast off / moth balled aircraft which for some reason I just think would have problems !!! LOL
thread drift - M/E conversion
Another whole discussion ... but perhaps another role for a "suitably upskilled"(?) 32 on way to OC with 350's (or similar) offering M/E, modern cockpit, CRM
Be interesting to see the savings in costs / time for OPCON.
Be interesting to see the savings in costs / time for OPCON.
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I believe the ME training unit was bandied around several years ago but no FEG could offer up any reduction in OPCON length/cost. Not sure how the length of RAAF Herc/P3 conversions compare to RNZAF Herc/P3 conversions considering the Kiwi's get their wings on a twin.
32 and 38 are doing a reasonable job of giving guys hours on an automated jet, and typically (at 32 anyway) most 2FTS grads are getting a second tour on something bigger. Can only think of 1 2FTS guy from 32 that has gone to a ground job (and that was GTO at Pearce).
It will be interesting to see how the H model drivers are distributed around the airforce in the gap between H model retirement and C27 arrival. DP and ALG manning will have their hands full right about now.....
32 and 38 are doing a reasonable job of giving guys hours on an automated jet, and typically (at 32 anyway) most 2FTS grads are getting a second tour on something bigger. Can only think of 1 2FTS guy from 32 that has gone to a ground job (and that was GTO at Pearce).
It will be interesting to see how the H model drivers are distributed around the airforce in the gap between H model retirement and C27 arrival. DP and ALG manning will have their hands full right about now.....
Regarding ME traning an idea I chucked around awhile a go was that we should do all the NZ initial pilot training up to 2FTS wings and then they do,all the multi traning. A few exchange postings goes with the deal and sweet as bro!
Even on the ka350, one of the problems experienced has been that you wouldn't send someone to fly one without 3000 hours, getting an appropriate training package has been hard, especially without our own sim.
I reckon opcons have taught basic flying well, but haven't taught captaincy/decision making/crm/emergency handling for the me environment well, and I don't mean efatos. That Is stuff you could learn on the line from captains with1000s of military command hours on multiple types.
Much harder to learn on a kc30 in the current environment.
C27s will probably be some of the best military flying for boggies. Diverse, challenging and operational.
I reckon opcons have taught basic flying well, but haven't taught captaincy/decision making/crm/emergency handling for the me environment well, and I don't mean efatos. That Is stuff you could learn on the line from captains with1000s of military command hours on multiple types.
Much harder to learn on a kc30 in the current environment.
C27s will probably be some of the best military flying for boggies. Diverse, challenging and operational.
Last edited by FlareHighLandLong; 12th May 2012 at 07:27.
I believe the ME training unit was bandied around several years ago but no FEG could offer up any reduction in OPCON length/cost. Not sure how the length of RAAF Herc/P3 conversions compare to RNZAF Herc/P3 conversions considering the Kiwi's get their wings on a twin.
32 and 38 are doing a reasonable job of giving guys hours on an automated jet, and typically (at 32 anyway) most 2FTS grads are getting a second tour on something bigger. Can only think of 1 2FTS guy from 32 that has gone to a ground job (and that was GTO at Pearce).
It will be interesting to see how the H model drivers are distributed around the airforce in the gap between H model retirement and C27 arrival. DP and ALG manning will have their hands full right about now.....
32 and 38 are doing a reasonable job of giving guys hours on an automated jet, and typically (at 32 anyway) most 2FTS grads are getting a second tour on something bigger. Can only think of 1 2FTS guy from 32 that has gone to a ground job (and that was GTO at Pearce).
It will be interesting to see how the H model drivers are distributed around the airforce in the gap between H model retirement and C27 arrival. DP and ALG manning will have their hands full right about now.....
38 guys are not overly optimistic about second tours. Some H model boggies have only just finished conversion. Any flying job is going to be valuable. I guess they will need some guys going to the states to learn to fly the c27 in 2014 but that's a 2 year ground job away.
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It is a reality for all RAAF pilot aspirants that the only aircraft they might get to fly in their careers is a Kingair. It is a legitimate (if not disapponting) career path in the RAAF to be a Kingair pilot for life.
Agree the C27 will provide some great flying. Hope ex caribou guys get a look in rather than it being manned by Herc types.
Agree the C27 will provide some great flying. Hope ex caribou guys get a look in rather than it being manned by Herc types.