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Libya Credit?

Old 9th Dec 2011, 18:59
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Libya Credit?

Gentlemen,

I couldn't help notice the visit by the Chief of Defence Staff to the R.N. Ship from which the Apaches flew operations over Libya. I might be a tad paranoid, but given the much publicised claims by various pundits over the the last 5 years or so about the need to dismiss the Junior Service, and now we have a situation arise for which they were very much to the fore, could it be objected that this is an attempt, part intentionally, to upstage the R.A.F.'s wee contribution the Libya "No Fly Zone"?

FB
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 19:12
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Hmm, and didn't the RAF have the blinged-up day at Waddington with the Deputy Prime Minister saying "those of you that have done well..." - albeit the AH was there too.

I think it's quite fitting that CDS makes a fuss of Ocean; to leave home for 7 weeks and return 7 months later is a hard ask. BZ Ocean and her crew.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 19:27
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I couldn't help notice the visit by the Chief of Defence Staff to the R.N. Ship from which the Apaches flew operations over Libya. I might be a tad paranoid, but given the much publicised claims by various pundits over the the last 5 years or so about the need to dismiss the Junior Service, and now we have a situation arise for which they were very much to the fore, could it be objected that this is an attempt, part intentionally, to upstage the R.A.F.'s wee contribution the Libya "No Fly Zone"?
I'd say it was a case of CDS out to visit the troops on the way home and say "well done". Anything more than that is paranoia.

Jeez, even when dishing out back slaps, they're viewed a a recce for future knife strikes. If CDS (or other VSO) hadn't gone to say BZ, the claims would be "Our Boys Get No Thanks From Top Brass".
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 19:34
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Well I thought I might be a little paranoid about it, but that's because of all the anti-light blue chit chat from from various people up to the SDSR, also, nobody outside the R.A.F. camp appear to be best please that the air staff selected the Harrier, out of the three possible candidates, for the retirement clock.

FB
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 19:44
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"Dear Mr Chancellor. Please can we have a boat load of Typhoons, a slack handful of part time A330s, A400Ms if we must, and f*** everybody else" might have had something to do with the situation you're reporting.

However, I really do think CDS went to say hi to the chaps and chapesses and that's all there is to it.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 20:20
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If one were to turn this on its head the PM himself only thanked 'aircrew and air staffs' when Ellamy was curtailed. A little blinkered if one were to be paranoid from another service's perspective.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 20:21
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Some redress for the PM visiting the hotel-accommodated RAF personnel at GdC and blanking all of the ships on the firing line perhaps?

Or simply a small token of appreciation from the top man in uniform towards service personnel who sailed for seven weeks but ended up spending nearly eight months deployed on top of the seven months they were away from home last year?

Your choice. Either way, it was good to see.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 21:11
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Great work FB
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 21:47
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I thought I might draw some flack for this, but I've regarded Sir David as someone who considers air power something which existed purely to fight Russians with, up to and no further than 1990. I recall his speech reported in the Daily Telegraph, all about counter-insurgency warfare and the need to concentrate on the land capability. Air support according to the General would be best suited if provided by Super Tucano! Or something along those lines.

As for the comment from Roadster about Typhoons, A330s and A400s, just think how many we could afford if it wasn't for the never never Aircraft Carriers currently being processed, simply to save wasting anymore money, in order to mothball one of them.

But to be honest, I think it is an apalling state of affairs that we're bickering over what are really the standard capabilities of a frontline Navy, Army and Air Force. I wouldn't bat an eyelid were this in the wake of any such campaign which took place prior to the beginning of operations in Afghanistan, in earnest. But thanks to the last government's desire to get stuck in abroad, as it were, but with no intention of affording due priority of resources to such antics, unhelpful remarks from khaki and dark blue senior officers, have become common place since. They've been scrambling for resources which have been denied rather than have never been there.

That's the reason why I may have looked to deeply into what would otherwise pass as far more routine.

FB
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 22:03
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Libya credit?

Gentlemen, do we really need to be thanked for doing the job? I would suggest that it is only a political thrust by MP's to be seen as "pro-service" to the general public. We have been doing the "dirty work" for many, many years without all the publicity that is now apparent - no problem! Maybe I am out of date in my thinking (my age is correct!) but I feel there is a "double edged" sword being forged. Hope I am wrong.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 22:30
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It's not the Typhoons or AT. It's the disservice to the Navy with the binning of Nimrod and Harrier.

Not that the Navy helped their own case with slashing their fleet to get the two carriers, but even so, they've been shafted.

I say this as a retired soldier. I have no axe to grind on behalf of the Navy, just an onlooker distressed by the whole thing. SDSR was just a disgrace, brought on by years of Labour mis"management".

I do think the visit by CDS was nothing more than what it says on the tin though.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 22:43
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Roadster,

I'm happy to accept that and agree a 1000% with what you say.. Indeed, Nimrod and Harrier shouldn't have gone and because of Blair's placing the Armed Forces on a Lion footing while GordonBrown provided House Cat funding we're where we are and now the current lot are blaming a Debt and Deficit for why even more has to sliced off, as if the military frontline hasn't made its contribution to deficit reduction over the last 14 years.

FB
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 22:49
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37 years in tells me that anyone seeing anything more than "glad handing" in a senior officers visit is really in need of therapy..............great fishing trip FB
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 23:07
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Ok,

I'm starting to get a sense of my acute paranoia now!

FB

Last edited by Finningley Boy; 9th Dec 2011 at 23:17.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 09:46
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CDS visited Ocean after attending the opening of the Muscat Opera House. The visit to Ocean was coincidental and only lasted an hour before CDS went onwards to the UK. The RN have a very efficient media team therefore much was made of the visit however most of the praise that day was directed at HMS Ocean and not the Apache contingent.

What I find remarkable is that FB feels that the Op ELLAMY contribution by the RAF was overshadowed by this CDS visit. Every strike shown by the media had a RAF banner attached and the MOD website was largely saturated with RAF media representation. I can only remember 2 media clips showing AH engagements after nearly 30 missions.

Single service pettiness is not at all helpful during these fiscally challenging times. We should protect capability and the resultant effect across the 3 services. It should be remembered that the fast air and AH capability and effect are different without competing budgets.

Let us not self-destruct from paranoia.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 12:52
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Army chief General Sir David Richards says ships and jets no longer the answer | UK news | The Guardian

That's exactly my point Helidriver, but CDS started it when he first became CGS!

FB
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 13:07
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International Institute for Strategic Studies Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton Address

Here's the speech from Sir Stephen Dalton around the same time.

FB
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 19:40
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American HH-60s on HMS Ocean

It's a shame that y'all were told only a 7 week exercise then ended up being out at sea for over 7 months. It was however a pleasure serving with a bunch of the folks on the HMS Ocean when we were on board towards the end of the conflict (mid-to late September). I definitely loved being on the HMS Ocean... what an experience!
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 20:19
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Helidriver said,

"What I find remarkable is that FB feels that the Op ELLAMY contribution by the RAF was overshadowed by this CDS visit. Every strike shown by the media had a RAF banner attached and the MOD website was largely saturated with RAF media representation. I can only remember 2 media clips showing AH engagements after nearly 30 missions."

Thirty missions? Yep, thanks for coming....
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Old 11th Dec 2011, 10:10
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30 missions at 100' versus 100 at 30,000' - Well done you!
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