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SARH

Old 2nd Dec 2011, 07:59
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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lets think about where we can put all these aircraft.

Lossie relocate to Inverness (open 24 hrs and air ambulance already based there)
Prestwick relocate to Glasgow (open 24 hrs and nearer all the hospitals)
Leconfield relocate to Humberside
Wattisham relocate to Southend
Chivenor relocate to Swansea
Culdrose relocate to Newquay
only Military base with no real alternative is Valley.

so the MOD does not need to be involved at all other than valley.

Stornoway remains as does Sumburgh and Lee



I was in the game for 16 years, 8 of which were on SAR and dont really understand why some of you are so stressed about the whole thing, lets face it SAR is a cost the MOD can no longer afford.

I go to Stornoway and Sumburgh as part of my civvy job and spend a fair amount of time with the CHC crews, lets face it the S92 is a very capable aircraft, far more so than the Seaking, the only downside is the lack NVG's but that is not the end of the world (ask all those who flew at Gannet without them for all those years).

They are flown mainly by ex military personnel and those that arent tend to be selected and having flown with them they are as capable as the military pilots I flew with, if not more so (no names!!)

Those that protest too much are institutionised (sp?) and are, in my view, a little scared of making that jump into the wider world - do it its great.

oh and crab I think you will find Tourist has both military and civvy IR's, I spent many many happy hours flying with him, as for his comments its called flexibilty .
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 12:24
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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oh and crab I think you will find Tourist has both military and civvy IR's, I spent many many happy hours flying with him, as for his comments its called flexibilty
I'm afraid that the rules regarding precision approaches and required visual references do not require 'flexibility'. I'm afraid that aviation in bad weather can be fairly unforgiving of 'flexibility', and let me assure you that as an IRI and IRE that attitude would certainly not be rewarded in an IR.
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 14:36
  #103 (permalink)  
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Oh dear!!

The main value of having a good IRI in your midst is to coach the chaps in wise ways to make best use of the worst conditions. The alternative of course is the IRE traffic cop who sees a rule and aims for it.
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 14:43
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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the IRE traffic cop
That is the one the a civil aircraft's insurance company listens to. All aircraft are flown within the remit;- IAW the Company Operations Manual.
End of story
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 15:14
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Icanseeclearly: I think, reading between your lines, you have only recently noticed this thread - yes? Otherwise you wouldn't make such a basic statement.
It's not because the MoD can no longer afford it (the money will still come from the MoD's budget even though they are not involved anymore). It's because the RAF don't want to shoulder Mil SAR anymore (and haven't wanted it for years!).

We all know SAR is no big deal - all of us.
Most of us know that 6 months after the transition happens, it will be as if this thread never existed, but currently it is a big deal for all those involved because it affects their futures directly, it affects the effectiveness of the industry for the foreseeable future, blah blah. It can't simply be brushed under the carpet, it is a very evocative subject for many

Everything everyone wanted to know about "LONG SAR" is here:

UK Search & Rescue Helicopter Service - Publications - Department for Transport. In particular, read the PQQ.

Enjoy.
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 17:13
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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I'm Off

"I'm afraid that the rules regarding precision approaches and required visual references do not require 'flexibility'"

When you are a little less wet behind the ears, you may learn that Aviation is not about rules and all about flexibility.

We have rules to try to guide us down the correct path, but only a non-aviator believes that everything you may come across is in the rule book. Sometimes you need a little bit of flexibility of thinking.

That is why knowing about little tricks like staying high on the glidepath so you are over the runway at DH is worthwhile. Not because it should be normal proceedure, but because on that occasion when you have no diversion, no fuel left and no other option but a PAR to below minima then it might just save your life.

Incidentally, it was taught to me by an ex boss of trappers who I was crewed up with on the 771. I suppose that by the time you get to that position you have got over your current "shiney new IRI IRE / very excited / rule fascist" phase that newbies such as yourself tend to go through before they grow up and realise that life is not black and white in the SAR world.

Not everything in the rule book is right, and not everything that is right is in the rule book.


Farseastdriver

"All aircraft are flown within the remit;- IAW the Company Operations Manual.
End of story"


Ok, here is a scenario.

You, as a civilian, are flying your shiney new s92 IAW the Company manual etc.

You go out on a shout for a sinking cruise liner on a dark stormy night way out in the Atlantic. You start rescuing survivors in the water. After you have got 10 rescued, you realise because you have done very careful calculations that you have reached max allowable all up weight.

But there are 3 children left in the dark and stormy waters beneath you.


You know that they will be dead before you can return to land and come back to them.

Do you leave them?

Or do you say "sod the manual, I know there is some flex in the weights and I will pick up the kids"?

End of Story?

Do you think the company would thank you for rigid adherance to the rules in that case, or are things never quite so black and white as that?

I have said it before and I will say it again.

Captaincy is the art of knowing exactly when to break the rules, and by how much.

We are again, however, rather diverging from the question of when Crab is going to produce figures showing that Culdrose is a bad place for SAR due wx......
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 17:47
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tourist

Ok, here is a scenario.

You, as a civilian, are flying your shiney new s92 IAW the Company manual etc.

You go out on a shout for a sinking cruise liner on a dark stormy night way out in the Atlantic. You start rescuing survivors in the water. After you have got 10 rescued, you realise because you have done very careful calculations that you have reached max allowable all up weight.

But there are 3 children left in the dark and stormy waters beneath you.


You know that they will be dead before you can return to land and come back to them.

Do you leave them?

Or do you say "sod the manual, I know there is some flex in the weights and I will pick up the kids"?

End of Story?

Do you think the company would thank you for rigid adherance to the rules in that case, or are things never quite so black and white as that?

I have said it before and I will say it again.

Captaincy is the art of knowing exactly when to break the rules, and by how much.
The problem with your scenario is you have taken a decision to put at risk your aircraft, it's crew and the survivors based on your "f@ck it lets do it attitude, not saying you are wrong but thats precisely what you are doing.

Taking your scenario a few steps further you stay on station to pick up remaining three kids, 2 are on board and as the third and the winchman reach the door you lose an engine, the other engine works as advertised but because your airframe is now overloaded it cannot fly you away and you all end up in the oggin.....

Still think it was great Captaincy or was it simply taking a chance and hoping for the best. As I said I not arguing with the sentiment of your decision but it does need putting into context
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 17:52
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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As ever Tourist, you are trying to muddy the waters here to cover your own embarrassment - a SAROP is completely different and I have before and will in the future, be flexible about limits/rules/regulations in order to preserve life.

You made an unprofessional statement trying to appear the SAR hero about a crap technique (and I don't care who taught it to you) to get back to CU, not to save lives.

I have used NVG on a night ILS to see the lights when I had a critical casualty on board.

But that is not the same as your blanket assertion that ignoring your real MApt and positioning high over the threshold just to see the lights is a valid technique in anything but an emergency.

If you want to break the rules then do so sensibly - a low speed PAR/ILS to below your DH is a far better way of getting visual, but only when you really, really have to.

Sadly, you give a poor impression of RN aviation as a whole - which I know isn't justified - but your cavalier attitude to IF is a very poor example to more junior posters here.
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 18:13
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Back to thread

Fellas - lets drop the sh&t dits on IF and Cu wx and get back to the thread.
TC - RAF don't want SAR - really...?? They seem to have fought a pretty valiant rearguard action to preserve the third leg on their stool.
As to MoD still paying - what are you basing that on?? DfT are on their own now and risk losing money to MoD if the contract inception is delayed.
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 18:26
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Tourist,

What Crab said...

And we all know I wasn't talking about an active SAR shout, but a recovery to base on completion. As for me being 'wet behind the ears', and 'shiny new IRI', with all due respect (ie none) you know nothing about me. You shouldn't leap to conclusions. If I was a new IRI would you listen to me? A QHI? Standards? Boss of a Sqn? Shouldn't advice be based on the content of the advice as well as the person it is coming from. Beware dangerous assumptions in an anonymous forum...

And fwiw, in the situation described - poor weather, no fuel and no diversion, I would always stay centreline/glideslope and opt to reduce speed instead. If really in the sh*t, you want to be looking out the window in front of you at the TDZ lights forward and down, not underneath you. Over 1 dot deflection high on the glideslope and the smart move is to go around - but the smarter move is not to put yourself in that situation in the first place...

Now let's not hear any more of this antagonistic talk shall we? Obviously we are not going to agree so shall we just leave it?
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 19:04
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Crab

As ever trying to dig away at something to distract from your total inability to defend your premise.

Talk about muddying the waters, you are chaff and flaring like a good-un!
Out of my original statements, you have continued to ignore everything pertaining to Culdrose and it's SAR base suitability hoping to disract from your error by moving on to my suitability as a SAR captain.

Show some evidence to support your farcical assertion that Culdrose is a bad SAR base or admit you were totally wrong.

Culdrose is a truly great SAR base in terms of wx and position.



ps, I love your mocking of my warry SAR stories only to add your own. Make your mind up. Are SAR stories in or out?

pps. First I am unprofessional for having been flexible with my interpretation of precision approach minima, then you admit to having used nvg to gain visual!

ppps Then you go on to tell me a superior technique for evading the rules!


Hypocrisy is never pretty.......





"SAROP is completely different and I have before and will in the future, be flexible about limits/rules/regulations in order to preserve life."

Something to consider.

Is a SAR job with all the pressures that come with it really the best time to try something you have never tried before?
Is it really the best time to explore the envelope?
Is it really the best time to flex a rule you have never stretched before?


SFFP

Yup, you are totally correct, it would be taking a chance, and if it all goes wrong then it is 100% on the captains head that he lost his crew and rescuees.


That said, I would despise to my last breath the SAR captain who didn't take the risk. That's what I mean about knowing when and by how much to break the rules.

3 more kids - give it a go.
30 more kids - we need a new plan.
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 20:41
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Is a SAROP the best time to explore the untested?

A really daft question, asked by somebody who has not the first idea about SAR. It is clearly the only time. When training we can only fly known and specifically authorised exercises. Training is varied as much as imagination can allow but it always within the confines of the rules. ONLY on a job can the 'untested' be attempted. It is the skill, ingenuity and understanding of military crews that allow us to prevail in these circumstances.

I have never flown with a military pilot who would not think laterally and take the risk to save a life.

I have never flown with a (non ex-mil) civvy who could.

Civvy SAR will cost lives.I will be the first to say '..told you so' and call ministers to account. Very very sad times. The RAF are soon to lose the very best service they have. I stare desolately into the evening sky, with a heavy heart and weep for the future. RAF SAR was wonderous, exact, and the epitome of professionalism.
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 22:14
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Bigtop: The people you are talking about (those defending the RAF on this forum), are the coal face who simply know very little of the big picture. The real decision makers said goodbye to RAFSAR atleast 8-10 years ago maybe longer.
Trust me when I tell you that of all the AOC's in the RAF, all but 1 of them is against RAFSAR remaining. It doesn't fit with their business plan anymore.
Secondly - where do you think the DfT is going to find a budget this big then? The money has to come from someone's budget and it was and remains the MoD's. It was ring fenced pre SDSR and still is, ready for the next round. The choice was money from either the MoD or MCA and the MCA have nada, zilch, nowt!

Chopabeefer - you are an embarrassment to the fraternity. Who the hell do you think you are denigrating civvy SAR drivers for their professionalism. Since when has the civvy SAR world been unfit for purpose. To all those civvy drivers out there, I apologise unreservedly for this cretins attitude.
You are beneath contempt.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 05:59
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Whoa - stop!!! This has all got a bit silly (even more so than usual)

Tourist - your outrage must have led you to miss this from me in post 99
So, to summarise - the weather at Culdrose is not great but SAR continues there anyway
Get over it.

You seem to think that SAROPs preclude flying safely and within the rules and allow full freedom for you to do what you want - remember your first duty is to the safety of your aircraft and crew.

TC is right, I and others fought a losing battle over mil SAR and it is lost - I will get over that.

Icanseecleary - at least come up with a viable alternative to Chiv - Swansea has no ILS and is 400' up on a hill! Cardiff would be better.

6Z3 - the purpose of an IRE is not to encourage pilots to put themselves in dangerous situations where disorientation may well kill them and their crew. 150' above the threshold with only lights below you to orientate yourself is not the time to transfer from instrument to visual flight just to rtb.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 08:32
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RAF SAR was wonderous, exact, and the epitome of professionalism

Wondrous use of extra vowels and wrong tense aside, is this choppers bid for cononization of the entire SAR Force?
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 08:33
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Err...at what point did I say civvies were unprofessional? Just re-read my post...nope, it's not there. You have read what you wanted to, not what I have written. Some sauce for that chip sir? At least I know what I think. Some soul searching may be in order for you however.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 08:46
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Err...at what point did I say that you said that civvies were unprofessional? Just re-read my post...nope, it's not there. You have read what you wanted to, not what I have written. Some sauce for that chip sir? At least I know what I said. Some dictionary searching may be in order for you however.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 08:57
  #118 (permalink)  
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Crab,

You have both missed and made my point.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 09:35
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Chopabeefer:

If you can't see that suggesting that "Civvy pilots cannot think laterally and would not take a risk to save a life" is calling their professionalism into question then you are as ignorant as you are bigoted!
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 10:38
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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6Z3 - sorry, I thought you were pointing the IRE traffic cop tag at me and defending Tourist's 'modified PAR' technique - apologies if that wasn't so
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