SARH
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crab and others.
No, RN SAR cabs do not have ILS, however, the replacements will.
Red does not mean below precision approach minima for a helicopter. Red at Culdrose in particular means that some area of the airfield is red. You can always come up over loo bar or up the Helford depending on the wind direction.
771 launches without atc being in the tower all the time.
The replacement could do the same.
Civvy police helicopters operate from Culdrose without ATC, as do the gliding club etc.
Can any of you show me figure that show that SAR from Culdrose is stopped by weather more than any other base?
No?
Thought not.
Is this an example of early political manuevering against Culdrose?
No, RN SAR cabs do not have ILS, however, the replacements will.
Red does not mean below precision approach minima for a helicopter. Red at Culdrose in particular means that some area of the airfield is red. You can always come up over loo bar or up the Helford depending on the wind direction.
771 launches without atc being in the tower all the time.
The replacement could do the same.
Civvy police helicopters operate from Culdrose without ATC, as do the gliding club etc.
Can any of you show me figure that show that SAR from Culdrose is stopped by weather more than any other base?
No?
Thought not.
Is this an example of early political manuevering against Culdrose?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear, I should have been more clear. What I am getting at is "What is the military overhead, post 2016, for enabling 24/7 civilianised long range SAR from a mil airfield?" Will DfT pay this?
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
[email protected] wrote:
Culdrose has a poor weather factor whether you can recover by grovelling or not.
Culdrose has a poor weather factor whether you can recover by grovelling or not.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why should there be any overhead Bismark?
The duty personnel are already there.
There is no requirement to close up ATC before launching the SAR. They often do, but on a shout the SAR goes before the tower is open.
The duty personnel are already there.
There is no requirement to close up ATC before launching the SAR. They often do, but on a shout the SAR goes before the tower is open.
Red does not mean below precision approach minima for a helicopter. Red at Culdrose in particular means that some area of the airfield is red. You can always come up over loo bar or up the Helford depending on the wind direction.
I would be interested to know if the present CivSAR crews are allowed to rtb that way.
Penzance won't be a poor weather option unless you plan to do your shopping at Tescos at the same time
Some people seem very sensitive to the future of Culdrose - the same people who were being smug when Chiv was faced with 12 hour ops or even closure???
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Age: 50
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tourist,
Afraid Crab@ is right, you're talking out of your hoop. Red conditions will be only be declared if cloud and visibility fail to criteria for a higher colour state. And if they fail to meet higher colour state minima then it means that the weather is below precision approach minima at CU. For example, what is the lowest DA/DH for an instrument approach to CU? And what would the weather have to be for it to be declared colour state Red?
If you choose to get around that with low level landfall approaches then that is another thing entirely because you are not flying an instrument approach.
Afraid Crab@ is right, you're talking out of your hoop. Red conditions will be only be declared if cloud and visibility fail to criteria for a higher colour state. And if they fail to meet higher colour state minima then it means that the weather is below precision approach minima at CU. For example, what is the lowest DA/DH for an instrument approach to CU? And what would the weather have to be for it to be declared colour state Red?
If you choose to get around that with low level landfall approaches then that is another thing entirely because you are not flying an instrument approach.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Minima for PAR in a seaking = 150' last time I looked.
Red means cloudbase below 200ft
Also, at DA/DH you must be able to see the "required visual references", not, I repeat not, be clear of cloud. The required visual references include runway lighting which can be seen through a lot of cloud.(especially if you fly high all the way down the approach so that MAP is over the runway itself. It has to be pretty thick to not be able to see vertically 150'
)
An airfield will declare colour code red if the cloud base is below 200' in any sector. Culdrose has 6 runways. It is very common that one of the available ones will be usable even if the others are not. At Culdrose, the red colour code which you may see on your brief at your own airfield far away is often caused by fog funneling from either the Helford or Loe Bar and only impinges on one area of the airfield. The other areas are often available in beautiful VMC. Many is the time I have landed on 30 in sunshine to meet a solid wall of fog half way down the runway.
The ability is grub in with relative ease is not irrelevent. You cannot make a low level landfall approach to Newquay in the same way. The cliff makes it a little more tricky.
Culdrose is very nicely placed in terms of options. The Lizard gives both an easterly and westerly "grub" option depending on the wind. One side is invariably clear.
Are you telling me that the modern Seaking replacement will not be Cat II anyway?
The proof is in the pudding.
It has been posted on here that Culdrose has a poor weather factor which makes it unsuitable for SAR.
Normally the burden of proof would fall upon the postee to back that up with some stats.
Show me a list of SAR bases and jobs lost due wx please or stfu.
Red means cloudbase below 200ft
Also, at DA/DH you must be able to see the "required visual references", not, I repeat not, be clear of cloud. The required visual references include runway lighting which can be seen through a lot of cloud.(especially if you fly high all the way down the approach so that MAP is over the runway itself. It has to be pretty thick to not be able to see vertically 150'
)An airfield will declare colour code red if the cloud base is below 200' in any sector. Culdrose has 6 runways. It is very common that one of the available ones will be usable even if the others are not. At Culdrose, the red colour code which you may see on your brief at your own airfield far away is often caused by fog funneling from either the Helford or Loe Bar and only impinges on one area of the airfield. The other areas are often available in beautiful VMC. Many is the time I have landed on 30 in sunshine to meet a solid wall of fog half way down the runway.
The ability is grub in with relative ease is not irrelevent. You cannot make a low level landfall approach to Newquay in the same way. The cliff makes it a little more tricky.
Culdrose is very nicely placed in terms of options. The Lizard gives both an easterly and westerly "grub" option depending on the wind. One side is invariably clear.Are you telling me that the modern Seaking replacement will not be Cat II anyway?
The proof is in the pudding.
It has been posted on here that Culdrose has a poor weather factor which makes it unsuitable for SAR.
Normally the burden of proof would fall upon the postee to back that up with some stats.
Show me a list of SAR bases and jobs lost due wx please or stfu.
Last edited by Tourist; 30th Nov 2011 at 19:24.
Also, at DA/DH you must be able to see the "required visual references", not, I repeat not, be clear of cloud. The required visual references include runway lighting which can be seen through a lot of cloud.(especially if you fly high all the way down the approach so that MAP is over the runway itself. It has to be pretty thick to not be able to see vertically 150')
I also think you might find not many of your RN standards would agree that looking down through cloud at the lights is within the spirit of 'required visual references'
If that is your idea of safe operation then I can only conclude that you are a bit of a gash operator.
PS Cat II ILS is as much to do with the ground installation as what is on the aircraft.
PPS - I said Culdrose had a poor weather factor, not that it precluded SAROps - how many times has the airshow been washed out there and how many non-SAR RN aircraft have had to divert because of poor weather?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tourist,
You are getting very sensitive. No one has anything against Culdrose excepting to identify if there are any changes to operating with a Civ SAR as opposed to mil SAR. If there is no ILS then there is no unmanned option for precision approaches. If the Duty people (ATCs, AOOD, Duty LtCdr F) etc are only there to cover the current SAR commitment then that will be an overhead if they are reqd for CivSAR. For example, I believe at Yeovilton, if there is no night flying programmed the Duty ATCs go home and the only airfield duty staff are at the fire station to cover an establishment fire not to cover non mil flying.
No agenda just curiosity.
You are getting very sensitive. No one has anything against Culdrose excepting to identify if there are any changes to operating with a Civ SAR as opposed to mil SAR. If there is no ILS then there is no unmanned option for precision approaches. If the Duty people (ATCs, AOOD, Duty LtCdr F) etc are only there to cover the current SAR commitment then that will be an overhead if they are reqd for CivSAR. For example, I believe at Yeovilton, if there is no night flying programmed the Duty ATCs go home and the only airfield duty staff are at the fire station to cover an establishment fire not to cover non mil flying.
No agenda just curiosity.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Airshow washed out" and not fit for SAR are two entirely different things.
Airshows require 1000s of feet for a half decent show.
Speaking for myself, I have only once ever diverted from Culdrose, and that was fixed wing. Even the Hawks diverted that day
"I also think you might find not many of your RN standards would agree that looking down through cloud at the lights is within the spirit of 'required visual references'"
I think they would be unhappy about the "high on the glidepath" option hence the smiley, but would be perfectly happy with the required visual references, because those are the rules in black and white. They don't say "clear below the cloudbase", they very clearly state "required visual references" and then say what they are in great detail. They are written like that for a reason.
To be fair, I may be/am a bit of a gash operator, but at least I know my basic rules and weather limits, unlike some on here talking about it not being possible to legally recover a helicopter by precision approach in red.....
Bismark
There is an ILS like I said before
771 just don't use it, and DLCF etc are not just there for the SAR by any means. ATC may be different, but are not required for launch anyway.
Airshows require 1000s of feet for a half decent show.
Speaking for myself, I have only once ever diverted from Culdrose, and that was fixed wing. Even the Hawks diverted that day
"I also think you might find not many of your RN standards would agree that looking down through cloud at the lights is within the spirit of 'required visual references'"
I think they would be unhappy about the "high on the glidepath" option hence the smiley, but would be perfectly happy with the required visual references, because those are the rules in black and white. They don't say "clear below the cloudbase", they very clearly state "required visual references" and then say what they are in great detail. They are written like that for a reason.
To be fair, I may be/am a bit of a gash operator, but at least I know my basic rules and weather limits, unlike some on here talking about it not being possible to legally recover a helicopter by precision approach in red.....
Bismark
There is an ILS like I said before
771 just don't use it, and DLCF etc are not just there for the SAR by any means. ATC may be different, but are not required for launch anyway.
If you want to be clear about the rules then consider that unless you have the required visual references by the MAPt, which will be 1/2nm for a PAR with a 150' DH you must go around.
Poncing about deliberately high just to get visual with the lights is not legal - just gash! As you say, the rules are written that way for a reason - to stop idiots who think they are clever, crashing trying to get down in out of limits weather!
Poncing about deliberately high just to get visual with the lights is not legal - just gash! As you say, the rules are written that way for a reason - to stop idiots who think they are clever, crashing trying to get down in out of limits weather!
There are no cloud/viz conditions at Culdrose that would preclude me from launching on a SAR mission. The wind strength/direction might, ice might. What is relevant before launch is that there is a suitable destination to land any casualties that have been picked up; the challenge of the Met conditions at the rescue site is also relevant, but would not prevent me from launching.
Having successfully delivered the casualties to an appropriate destination (which could be Brest, if that's the only viable destination), the SAR mission is over. If Culdrose is RED/RED the crew should not return to Culdrose. Indeed, on occasions having recovered casualties up Carrick Roads to Treliske hospital, we'd call for the groundcrew to re-cock the aircraft at Treliske, and the aircrew would declare at Alert to RCC from Treliske until Culdrose clears (which could be a day or two later), crew changing as required at Treliske.
Tourist, grobbing into Cu over Looe Bar, or up the Helford, is no way to fly an aircraft that has already finished its SAR mission and is merely returning to base.
Having successfully delivered the casualties to an appropriate destination (which could be Brest, if that's the only viable destination), the SAR mission is over. If Culdrose is RED/RED the crew should not return to Culdrose. Indeed, on occasions having recovered casualties up Carrick Roads to Treliske hospital, we'd call for the groundcrew to re-cock the aircraft at Treliske, and the aircrew would declare at Alert to RCC from Treliske until Culdrose clears (which could be a day or two later), crew changing as required at Treliske.
Tourist, grobbing into Cu over Looe Bar, or up the Helford, is no way to fly an aircraft that has already finished its SAR mission and is merely returning to base.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: U.K.
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
we'd call for the groundcrew to re-cock the aircraft
...sorry should add and doctors to remain E&D current
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: sw
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is usually a south westerly wind at CU. In my experience of flying SAR missions out of there I found the North coast normally had a higher cloud base due to the effect of the land lifting the cloud base sufficiently enough to allow an approach into Newquay. I have diverted into Newquay on a number of occasions having failed to get in on a PAR to CU. Yes there are several runways but they are not all down to 150 feet DH. I have no proof to hand that Newquay weather is better than CU, just my own experience. If I had a choice I would move the future SAR base to the North coast and use a new ILS into Newquay and/or pay the civy ATC to man out of hours.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tourist,
Out of interest on which runway is the ILS and when did Culdrose get it? I have my flight manual open in front of me and no ILS is listed for any of the runways at Culdrose(whereas the one on 27 at yeovilton is). Nor does the on-line TAG data list an ILS.
What is DLCF there for if it is not for SAR? There is no station based OOH DLCF at Yeovilton if no flying is programmed.
Out of interest on which runway is the ILS and when did Culdrose get it? I have my flight manual open in front of me and no ILS is listed for any of the runways at Culdrose(whereas the one on 27 at yeovilton is). Nor does the on-line TAG data list an ILS.
What is DLCF there for if it is not for SAR? There is no station based OOH DLCF at Yeovilton if no flying is programmed.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In England
Posts: 371
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fascinating ( and to some extent revealing!) as the discussion about CU's weather factor is, there is one main reason behind the "vicinity" option against each of the present SAR base locations.
In part it recognises that politics will no longer allow any contractor complete freedom to base any future SAR helo organisation where they wish, be it the optimum disposition to deliver the new service or not. However, it does recognise that in some (note some) cases, the costs of ownership to the taxpayer in staying put may outweigh all the other factors, including some of the politics. This happened during SAR-H where despite political insistence that all 12 present bases had to remain the same, all the bidders finally got the message through that Prestwick was very expensive to keep going for 25 years, certainly as compared with the other 11 bases. Hence a compromise was reached where bidders could propose a move to a more cost effective location nearby.
The new competition has now encompassed this across all 10 remaining bases following pre competition discussions with industry. Bidders are unlikely to propose moving "down the road" unless there is a clear value for money reason to do so. Amongst a variety of factors, considering comparative implications of the local weather factor will no doubt be part of the decision.
In part it recognises that politics will no longer allow any contractor complete freedom to base any future SAR helo organisation where they wish, be it the optimum disposition to deliver the new service or not. However, it does recognise that in some (note some) cases, the costs of ownership to the taxpayer in staying put may outweigh all the other factors, including some of the politics. This happened during SAR-H where despite political insistence that all 12 present bases had to remain the same, all the bidders finally got the message through that Prestwick was very expensive to keep going for 25 years, certainly as compared with the other 11 bases. Hence a compromise was reached where bidders could propose a move to a more cost effective location nearby.
The new competition has now encompassed this across all 10 remaining bases following pre competition discussions with industry. Bidders are unlikely to propose moving "down the road" unless there is a clear value for money reason to do so. Amongst a variety of factors, considering comparative implications of the local weather factor will no doubt be part of the decision.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crab
As I made clear, there was a smiley for a reason, and why don't you answer my points?
How come you did not know that a DH of 150 feet is possible in red?
Where are you getting your "culdrose has a poor weather factor for SAR" data from?
Are you giving up on all your arguments and just digging at the one point you think you have leverage?
6Z3
I have no argument with any of that, though missions are not always over after the first drop off.
I am merely trying to argue that Culdrose is not bad for weather. Which it isn't.
Ticked all the boxes
I call walt.
Your terminology is wrong for a SAR boy.
As I made clear, there was a smiley for a reason, and why don't you answer my points?
How come you did not know that a DH of 150 feet is possible in red?
Where are you getting your "culdrose has a poor weather factor for SAR" data from?
Are you giving up on all your arguments and just digging at the one point you think you have leverage?
6Z3
I have no argument with any of that, though missions are not always over after the first drop off.
I am merely trying to argue that Culdrose is not bad for weather. Which it isn't.
Ticked all the boxes
I call walt.
Your terminology is wrong for a SAR boy.
Tourist, I am well aware of 150' DH being available in Red conditions but Red is defined as below 200' cloudbase not below 200' but above 150' and more often than not Red conditions are a result of advection fog which gives cloudbases in the SW well below 150'.
I suspect I could ring the met office at Culdrose and find out exactly how often it is in Red conditions every year but I spend most working days looking the RCS and MOMIDS which show exactly what a poor weather factor the place has.
How come you did not know that your great idea about fudging required visual references is illegal - how did you not know what a precision approach is actually all about?
If I am digging at one point - it is your credibility to argue anything to do with SAR because you don't seem to be able to do basic aviation safely.
I suggest you stop digging.
I suspect I could ring the met office at Culdrose and find out exactly how often it is in Red conditions every year but I spend most working days looking the RCS and MOMIDS which show exactly what a poor weather factor the place has.
How come you did not know that your great idea about fudging required visual references is illegal - how did you not know what a precision approach is actually all about?
If I am digging at one point - it is your credibility to argue anything to do with SAR because you don't seem to be able to do basic aviation safely.
I suggest you stop digging.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: LFA 3
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bismark
Out of interest on which runway is the ILS and when did Culdrose get it?
Originally Posted by Ticked all the boxes
Yes there are several runways but they are not all down to 150 feet DH.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"fudging required visual references is illegal "
Yes it is, but obeying them to the letter is not, in fact it is recommended.
It is rather worrying that you do not understand what both the letter and the meaning of the minima rules are.
Can you honestly tell me that you go around off a precision approach because though you can see the required visual references you feel you are not clear of cloud?
"but Red is defined as below 200' cloudbase not below 200' but above 150' and more often than not Red conditions are a result of advection fog which gives cloudbases in the SW well below 150'."
Ok - so now you admit that your earlier statements about not being able to make a precision approach in red are bollocks. What you should have said is that sometimes red will be too bad to make an approach. A very different thing.
You have also made a new statement.
"more often than not Red conditions are a result of advection fog "
Go on then. Rather than firing off statements, give me some data to support this.
"but I spend most working days looking the RCS and MOMIDS which show exactly what a poor weather factor the place has."
As I said earlier, watching from afar can give a very false impression. Your experience of Culdrose weather is down to watching a colour code on MOMIDS. Gosh what depth. The only true judge would be the data showing that Culdrose loses more jobs to weather than others.
Data that you have been ominously silent producing.....
Yes it is, but obeying them to the letter is not, in fact it is recommended.
It is rather worrying that you do not understand what both the letter and the meaning of the minima rules are.
Can you honestly tell me that you go around off a precision approach because though you can see the required visual references you feel you are not clear of cloud?
"but Red is defined as below 200' cloudbase not below 200' but above 150' and more often than not Red conditions are a result of advection fog which gives cloudbases in the SW well below 150'."
Ok - so now you admit that your earlier statements about not being able to make a precision approach in red are bollocks. What you should have said is that sometimes red will be too bad to make an approach. A very different thing.
You have also made a new statement.
"more often than not Red conditions are a result of advection fog "
Go on then. Rather than firing off statements, give me some data to support this.
"but I spend most working days looking the RCS and MOMIDS which show exactly what a poor weather factor the place has."
As I said earlier, watching from afar can give a very false impression. Your experience of Culdrose weather is down to watching a colour code on MOMIDS. Gosh what depth. The only true judge would be the data showing that Culdrose loses more jobs to weather than others.
Data that you have been ominously silent producing.....