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Future Force Structure

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Future Force Structure

Old 12th Nov 2011, 18:15
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Blimey, I go away for a game of golf and come back to a 'we've got more medals than you' stand-off. Another dangerous and unrealistic comparator!
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Old 12th Nov 2011, 18:24
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I care about being on topic!

I couldn't give a flying fig about which service feels more aggrieved and which metrics we should use to prove who is hardest done by.

what i do care about is how the RAF leadership think modifying a hierarchical force structure by rustication is actually going to improve our operational effectiveness both in peacetime and for conflict.

typical pprune c0ck waving

anyone?
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Old 12th Nov 2011, 18:43
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Herc,
I cannot for the life of me see how rustication (interestingly, auto spelling corrected it to rustic action!)will improve anything. RAF needs to reduce it's top level structures and start allowing those below 1* to take responsiblities.
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Old 12th Nov 2011, 19:25
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couldn't agree more, I keep seeing more and more apparent responsibility pushed up the chain.
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Old 12th Nov 2011, 19:59
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I heartily agree, we have enough trouble with others calling for our demise, without doing it to ourselves. We should be reducing our head count in the HQ by streamlinng not by sending them elsewhere. Most organisations I know would reduce and centralise when faced by resource pressures. We have lost our way and decided to manage rather than lead and command; what we should be doing is commanding with a light touch and trusting our boys and girls in the field to deliver by empowering them, not by adding inflated managment structures above them.
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Old 13th Nov 2011, 00:44
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Just answering the question

Originally Posted by Capt P U G Wash
Fod Plod,
I was cutting you some slack on numbers, if you count repeaters than the ratio is even less than 1.5%. As for discounting the RM that was because they conform to the Army plot of 1 in 5...
As only one campaign medal is issued per individual, the high incidence of your so-called "repeaters" means that the involvement of Naval Service personnel in Afghanistan has been even higher than the issue of 16,714 OSMs and/or clasps suggests. For example, 3 Cdo Bde has deployed on HERRICK four times since 2001. RMs might well conform to the Army's 1 in 5 for HERRICK but they are also deployed for lengthy periods in between, e.g. this year's COUGAR 11 involving embarked elements of 3 Cdo Bde HQ and 40 Cdo.

Originally Posted by Capt P U G Wash
...My point about your cut and paste was why not leave it there on an RN rumour site. Your admittance to resorting to FOI requests somewhat compromises you as a nuisance maker (or journo), unless you only use such requests to add to rumour sites.
Just to remind you, it was you who asked "...how many RN personnel are deployed today away from their role or training reqt, compared to RAF?". For the example I used in my response, I referred to a primary source, i.e. the result of my FOI request. It was not simply a "cut and paste" from another site.

On a final note, why should asking about the extent of RN participation in Afghanistan "compromise" me? As a naval historian and commentator on naval matters, I prefer to write with factual authority, not revel in my ignorance.
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Old 13th Nov 2011, 01:06
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Now it's your turn

P.S. You haven't answered my question yet:

Originally Posted by FODPlod
Originally Posted by Capt P U G Wash

...most RAF deployed units are away from their day job and routine training...
Not that I disagree with you but just what is their "day job" meant to be, then?
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Old 13th Nov 2011, 06:19
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FODplod,

I'm afraid that I couldn't give you the exact detail of day to day activity undertaken by the members of the RAF, but I would imagine that there is a wide some spectrum of activity depending on ones actual role - the RAF Careers Website does give a little detail on what each trade does -
RAF Careers home - jobs, recruitment and career opportunities in the RAF - RAF Careers

I would also suggest that preparing for operations plays a major part in the day to day life of all the services.
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Old 13th Nov 2011, 06:52
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Is there a case to get rid of your Group structure in toto? Could the roles undertaken by the Groups not be subsumed into Air Command. I suspect that there may be a degree of duplication in the current organisation (but don't know this for a fact).
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Old 13th Nov 2011, 07:15
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How will this rustication work with Lossie and Marham for GR4? Or Conz and Leu/Loss for typhoon? Where will the 1* sit then?
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Old 13th Nov 2011, 09:15
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The FE 1-stars are moving to their subordinate FHQs so no real impact to the stations without. The stn cdr function will remain at gp capt level at all stations, irrespective of the presence or otherwise of a rusticated 1-star and his (rather smaller) staff.

How it actually works out is any one's guess. Quite a change from when I joined with stn staff at one base, gp staff at another and Strike at yet another with a leviathan of staff at various MoD locations across London.
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Old 13th Nov 2011, 10:58
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Fod,
Perhaps you should make more FOI requests about the RAF, it would make you a more informed commentator.

The boys and girls of the RAF have very different jobs to their RN brothers and sisters. Are you suggesting that operating from home base makes their contribution any less valued? SAR, QRA, the Airbridge to operations and constant preparation to maintain the readiness for any unseen operation all shape the size of our force. Your suggestion that less (no) value should be attributed to tasks other than those physically deployed on today of all days is in very bad taste.

Each Service operates differently, suggesting that the RN are more cost effective because they have to be at sea to have an effect is so simplistic, I trust that if you ever make public comment you are more sophisticated than that, but judging by some of the jingoistic comment we have been subjected to in the press I am beginning to think not.

I thought long and hard about replying to your repeated questions in the small hours; today should be a day when we remember all of our service men and women past and present for what they have done and what they continue to do every day, whatever the colour of their cloth.
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Old 13th Nov 2011, 19:28
  #73 (permalink)  
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Right, so at the moment then we have Gp Capt DDH at a Stn (leaving aside Marham/Lossiemouth type issues) and we have platform Gp Capts at Air. Now we're rusticating out the platform Gp Capts and promoting them whilst giving them DDH responsibilities and effectively making those Gp Capts at Stn OC bogs and drains. Alternatively, we're adopting the FI model with a 1* boss and an OF5 COS, effectively making OC Ops redundant. Unless of course we're finally going to make SO2s lead Sqns and they all come under an OC Ops who's a wing leader???? I sense that this is another jobs for the 2 winged master race initiative....
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Old 13th Nov 2011, 20:58
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www,

Sounds like time to adopt the RN model of station cmd and force cdrs (seperate functions in RN). At least it would obviate the problem whereby the staish can be deployed to ops for 4 months yet leaving the station full of assets with responsibility delegated to a wg cdr - if this can be done then the staish could be a wg cdr in the first place.
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Old 13th Nov 2011, 23:25
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www,

Sounds like time to adopt the RN model of station cmd and force cdrs (seperate functions in RN). At least it would obviate the problem whereby the staish can be deployed to ops for 4 months yet leaving the station full of assets with responsibility delegated to a wg cdr - if this can be done then the staish could be a wg cdr in the first place.
and i can also do my boss's job when he's away but that doesn't mean it should be relegated to my rank permanently
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Old 15th Nov 2011, 16:17
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and i can also do my boss's job when he's away but that doesn't mean it should be relegated to my rank permanently
Why not..?
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Old 15th Nov 2011, 19:05
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Interesting that having started this thread last week, we get a briefing note today about this very subject. So at the Stn level which model are we having? Gp Capt OC Bogs and Drains or Gp Capt COS (upranking and re-roling the OC Ops post)? Based on the fact that IOC is early 2012 and FOC early 2013 someone should have an answer?
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 10:20
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There's a little known annex to QRs that requires the RAF to redesign its structure every seven years. The most important thing is to impose the latest change BEFORE the previous one has fully taken effect.

We fear change!
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