Another Red Arrows mishap? (merged)
Join Date: Nov 2011
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I've been following this since the accident happened. I maintained, fitted and removed, and occasionally flew in a number of Ejection Seat types whilst serving in the Royal Air Force: 4PB - Jet Provost 5A; 4H series - Hunter T-birds; 6MSB - Buccaneer. I also had knowledge of all Ejection Seat types through my role as Spares Forecasting Officer - Conventional Armament Systems - at CSDE. I also did the 10A - Tornado F3 Ejection Seat as part of the Tornado AD Wpns Q course as part of the FI prep; in the end I didn't go down south, but that's not relevant here.
B Word - thanks for posting that schematic; very useful.
Something that I don't believe has been mentioned is the phase of flight, i.e., was the aircraft on the ASP prior to engine start; post engine start, taxy for take-off, etc. This could have a bearing - fully admitted speculation on my part.
On the question of inadvertent initiation of the Rocket Pack, I asked the question regarding whether or not an Ejection Seat could go up the rails without the normal Primary/Secondary Cartridge initiation sequence having taken place. The consensus from Bay/Line Armourers, CSDE Wpn Spec Flt and a number of M-B engineers I spoke with was: maybe.
If the Seat Pan were to be positioned in its highest position - this being the most beneficial for maintenance access to the cockpit floor areas - there could be sufficient space available for the blast and reaction forces to be dissipated. Were the Seat Pan to be in its lowest position there could be sufficient reactive force from the rocket efflux acting on the base of the Seat Pan to overcome the Ejection Seat Top Latch - please note: the Top Latch is not "released" - thereby pushing the Ejection Seat up the Ejection Gun and Guide Rail Assembly. It would depend on the position of the Seat Pan, and whether or not the Ejection Seat was occupied at the time.
My thoughts are with Sean's family and friends, and the Red Arrows, especially the Armourers. RIP
B Word - thanks for posting that schematic; very useful.
Something that I don't believe has been mentioned is the phase of flight, i.e., was the aircraft on the ASP prior to engine start; post engine start, taxy for take-off, etc. This could have a bearing - fully admitted speculation on my part.
On the question of inadvertent initiation of the Rocket Pack, I asked the question regarding whether or not an Ejection Seat could go up the rails without the normal Primary/Secondary Cartridge initiation sequence having taken place. The consensus from Bay/Line Armourers, CSDE Wpn Spec Flt and a number of M-B engineers I spoke with was: maybe.
If the Seat Pan were to be positioned in its highest position - this being the most beneficial for maintenance access to the cockpit floor areas - there could be sufficient space available for the blast and reaction forces to be dissipated. Were the Seat Pan to be in its lowest position there could be sufficient reactive force from the rocket efflux acting on the base of the Seat Pan to overcome the Ejection Seat Top Latch - please note: the Top Latch is not "released" - thereby pushing the Ejection Seat up the Ejection Gun and Guide Rail Assembly. It would depend on the position of the Seat Pan, and whether or not the Ejection Seat was occupied at the time.
My thoughts are with Sean's family and friends, and the Red Arrows, especially the Armourers. RIP
Join Date: Sep 2004
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My point was more geared to the fact that the rocket pack is a booster to supplement the energy from the gun. Being lanyard operated, the rockets are fired towards the top of the seat rail travel, not burning away right from the start. For a rocket only incident, I would expect much more heat and flame damage than seems visible in the photos. The discolouration on the right hand fuselage side may even be from the MDC initiator cartridge....
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I'm not a professional pilot but this is a network and I have heard this rumour - "that the desicion on lifting the grounding of Hawk and Tornado is due at some point today".
Anyone else able to comment on that one please?
Anyone else able to comment on that one please?
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I would expect much more heat and flame damage than seems visible in the photos.
The discolouration on the right hand fuselage side may even be from the MDC initiator cartridge.
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Truly amazing to see a public inquiry in action on the internet - and all from photos!
What they WON'T do is reach an evidential conclusion based on anything anyone on here may speculate about.
I sometimes wish this place would lighten up a bit and treat it for what it is - a forum.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Banging bang seats
I heard a hawk seat go off at RAE Bedford in about 82.
Pete had ejected v close to the ground
The sound was distinctive as abnormal and clearly an ejection but none of could say which part of the seat process we had heard
The gunfire and very short rocket burn are almost suncrinous
Often lay people make sense of what they have heard with words like bang, gun and rocket since their experience is limited
We should make due allowance for this in the witness comments describe above
Pete had ejected v close to the ground
The sound was distinctive as abnormal and clearly an ejection but none of could say which part of the seat process we had heard
The gunfire and very short rocket burn are almost suncrinous
Often lay people make sense of what they have heard with words like bang, gun and rocket since their experience is limited
We should make due allowance for this in the witness comments describe above
Often lay people make sense of what they have heard with words like bang, gun and rocket since their experience is limited
We should make due allowance for this in the witness comments describe above
We should make due allowance for this in the witness comments describe above
YS
Often lay people make sense of what they have heard with words like bang, gun and rocket since their experience is limited
We should make due allowance for this in the witness comments describe above
We should make due allowance for this in the witness comments describe above
airsound
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
According to our local paper, a bit more factual that the DM, members of the Horncastle Rotary Club witnessed the incident. "We thought it was a firework going off."
They then went on to say the RAF confiscated cameras and memory cards.
More likely they requested to borrow cameras and memory cards.
They then went on to say the RAF confiscated cameras and memory cards.
More likely they requested to borrow cameras and memory cards.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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I'm not a professional pilot but this is a network and I have heard this rumour - "that the desicion on lifting the grounding of Hawk and Tornado is due at some point today".
Anyone else able to comment on that one please?
Anyone else able to comment on that one please?
The UTI was signed off this afternoon. Checks in progress.
The UTI has no relevance to any discussion on here I am afraid ,you will perhaps understand reticence about posting technical information on a public forum.
But it must be fairly obvious that technical checks will be carried out on bang seat equipped a/c before they are allowed to fly.
rgds LR
But it must be fairly obvious that technical checks will be carried out on bang seat equipped a/c before they are allowed to fly.
rgds LR
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So what does it mean when the UTI is 'signed off'? Pardon me for being a bit dense here!
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The UTI is written, someone disagrees, rewritten, someone disagrees, rewritten etc etc... until finally, everyone agrees, and it is signed off. This process involved quite a large chain that includes various civilian companys and RAF risk holders.
UTIs on a Friday
In my day they were PWIs (Preliminary Warning Instructions) - and, yes, it usually took 3 or 4 days to investigate an incident (which usually included stopping the "starred" staffs jumping to conclusions), determining the fix and penning the instruction. This meant that the end of the week was normal and such instructions were referred to as the "Friday PWI". In those days of course, there were enough experienced engineers in blue suits etc to keep it down to 3 days or so.
Sadly....I am not sure that is still the case.
Sadly....I am not sure that is still the case.