British Military Planning for Iranian Strike?
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"2. One retired 2* who I worked with, had personally been involved in driving HGV vehicles through western europe gathering targeting information for soviet nuclear strikes."
If they hadn't have done that, I would have been very surprised and the military leadership should have been sacked. After all, it would be basic intel gathering which the west does as well.
Re Israel, if they were left alone and didn't have rockets dropped on them all the time, then I think they and the whole place would quieten down.
They just happen to have the will, the means and where with all to retaliate and they do so stop upsetting the beast.
If they hadn't have done that, I would have been very surprised and the military leadership should have been sacked. After all, it would be basic intel gathering which the west does as well.
Re Israel, if they were left alone and didn't have rockets dropped on them all the time, then I think they and the whole place would quieten down.
They just happen to have the will, the means and where with all to retaliate and they do so stop upsetting the beast.
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Re Israel, if they were left alone and didn't have rockets dropped on them all the time, then I think they and the whole place would quieten down.
The whole thing is a quagmire of history which can be traced all the way back to Hitler (and that Godwins the thread!).
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But the point being 500N, some of those poor friendly East Europeans were happily helping their Soviet Allies to tee us up for a nuclear strike of their own, which very much puts them in the game and makes them a target dont you think ?
And regarding PTT's comment, does anyone think that Israel would be quite so boldly aggressive if big brother US wasn't standing so closely behind them ?
And regarding PTT's comment, does anyone think that Israel would be quite so boldly aggressive if big brother US wasn't standing so closely behind them ?
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Well if they moved back to the pre-67 borders rather than continuing to expand aggressively then I suspect they'd have fewer rockets dropped on them
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SAMXXV's POST 76
I've tried to stay away from this thread but, yet again, have been encouraged by a.n.other to respond to the ramblings of SAMXXV as I too was in Germany, on Tornados, in the late 80s, albeit at Bruggen. I also did 2 tours at Laarbruch on Buccs in the 70s. All 3 tours involved sitting on QRA(S) and, whilst Staneval at Bruggen, I was also the station WST Supervising and Training officer.
Most of what SAMXXV states in Post 76 is utter bollocks; he states it in a manner suggesting that only the RAF(G) crews were involved in a potential nuclear holocaust.
Being the nuclear strike controller meant only that you were an aircrew bod on a ground tour, as a station ops officer, given the task on that day of being the man on the radio who released the R-Hour Launch. Since all the target information was held in a secure TS vault that could only be accessed under the '2-man principle' and only by those entitled he could not, as he states, have had access 24/7 to ALL the nuclear targets. I doubt he even actually saw a route map or IP-tgt map!
Targets where? I don't think so! In all the years sat in QRA in Germany, on both Buccs and GR1s, I don't ever recall having to go that far east to hit my Strike targets. All the missions planned were lo-lo, so reaching the Oder was a tad tricky! To have gone hi-lo-hi would have been suicide! I recall that the missions had an RTB leg (nobody asked the obvious question!). The Bucc, with its internal bomb-load, went further than the GR1, which served only to replace the Bucc and so took over the former's targets when it arrived in RAFG in 1993. Most of the targets were much closer to home for both. Indeed, on the plan, many would have already been struck by ICBMs by the time we would have got there!
Lonely night shifts studying targets on behalf of the crews - I don't think so! He may have rehearsed his lines and studied the launch sequence plan but looking at targets and even knowing which country they were in rather than their precise location - he's dreaming!
I could be wrong, of course, he may have been a senior station executive (who would still have been obliged to adhere to the 2-man principle) but I doubt it given his admitted experience on Bloodhounds and his role in Laarbruch Ops - both tasks usually reserved for below average JO aircrew who could, in those days, be retained in the service to undertake mundane aircrew-related ground tours!
Retard, I don't think so, unless you mean in the QWI context of High Drag!
Be like me - stop reading his drivel - you'll only end up mad like he is!
Now jinda, stop encouraging me over this walt!
Foldie
Most of what SAMXXV states in Post 76 is utter bollocks; he states it in a manner suggesting that only the RAF(G) crews were involved in a potential nuclear holocaust.
Being the nuclear strike controller meant only that you were an aircrew bod on a ground tour, as a station ops officer, given the task on that day of being the man on the radio who released the R-Hour Launch. Since all the target information was held in a secure TS vault that could only be accessed under the '2-man principle' and only by those entitled he could not, as he states, have had access 24/7 to ALL the nuclear targets. I doubt he even actually saw a route map or IP-tgt map!
Targets where? I don't think so! In all the years sat in QRA in Germany, on both Buccs and GR1s, I don't ever recall having to go that far east to hit my Strike targets. All the missions planned were lo-lo, so reaching the Oder was a tad tricky! To have gone hi-lo-hi would have been suicide! I recall that the missions had an RTB leg (nobody asked the obvious question!). The Bucc, with its internal bomb-load, went further than the GR1, which served only to replace the Bucc and so took over the former's targets when it arrived in RAFG in 1993. Most of the targets were much closer to home for both. Indeed, on the plan, many would have already been struck by ICBMs by the time we would have got there!
Lonely night shifts studying targets on behalf of the crews - I don't think so! He may have rehearsed his lines and studied the launch sequence plan but looking at targets and even knowing which country they were in rather than their precise location - he's dreaming!
I could be wrong, of course, he may have been a senior station executive (who would still have been obliged to adhere to the 2-man principle) but I doubt it given his admitted experience on Bloodhounds and his role in Laarbruch Ops - both tasks usually reserved for below average JO aircrew who could, in those days, be retained in the service to undertake mundane aircrew-related ground tours!
Retard, I don't think so, unless you mean in the QWI context of High Drag!
Be like me - stop reading his drivel - you'll only end up mad like he is!
Now jinda, stop encouraging me over this walt!
Foldie
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rmac
Understood.
re "And regarding PTT's comment, does anyone think that Israel would be quite so boldly aggressive if big brother US wasn't standing so closely behind them ?"
IMHO, yes, I think post 1945 they determined that they were not going to be kicked around any more and instead would fight back with a lot more determination in the future - which has been shown.
Now, they might not be as technologically advanced as they are without the US but I would say that they are pretty resourceful and would have come up with a similar solutions to achieving the same goals - possibly via the Russian equipment or by doing what China is doing.
I also agree with rh200. Just like Hitler, it wouldn't have mattered if all Jews were Blue eyed with blond hair, they were still Jews to be got rid of.
Just my HO
Understood.
re "And regarding PTT's comment, does anyone think that Israel would be quite so boldly aggressive if big brother US wasn't standing so closely behind them ?"
IMHO, yes, I think post 1945 they determined that they were not going to be kicked around any more and instead would fight back with a lot more determination in the future - which has been shown.
Now, they might not be as technologically advanced as they are without the US but I would say that they are pretty resourceful and would have come up with a similar solutions to achieving the same goals - possibly via the Russian equipment or by doing what China is doing.
I also agree with rh200. Just like Hitler, it wouldn't have mattered if all Jews were Blue eyed with blond hair, they were still Jews to be got rid of.
Just my HO
Do you really think that would be the case? The Islamists don't want a Israeli pull back, they don't want a Israel. There will always be a reason for them to do it, if they can't find one they will make one.
Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Folding wings said "
I've tried to stay away from this thread but, yet again, have been encouraged by a.n.other to respond to the ramblings of SAMXXV as I too was in Germany, on Tornados, in the late 80s, albeit at Bruggen. I also did 2 tours at Laarbruch on Buccs in the 70s. All 3 tours involved sitting on QRA(S) and, whilst Staneval at Bruggen, I was also the station WST Supervising and Training officer.
Most of what SAMXXV states in Post 76 is utter bollocks; he states it in a manner suggesting that only the RAF(G) crews were involved in a potential nuclear holocaust.
Being the nuclear strike controller meant only that you were an aircrew bod on a ground tour, as a station ops officer, given the task on that day of being the man on the radio who released the R-Hour Launch. Since all the target information was held in a secure TS vault that could only be accessed under the '2-man principle' and only by those entitled he could not, as he states, have had access 24/7 to ALL the nuclear targets. I doubt he even actually saw a route map or IP-tgt map!
Targets where? I don't think so! In all the years sat in QRA in Germany, on both Buccs and GR1s, I don't ever recall having to go that far east to hit my Strike targets. All the missions planned were lo-lo, so reaching the Oder was a tad tricky! To have gone hi-lo-hi would have been suicide! I recall that the missions had an RTB leg (nobody asked the obvious question!). The Bucc, with its internal bomb-load, went further than the GR1, which served only to replace the Bucc and so took over the former's targets when it arrived in RAFG in 1993. Most of the targets were much closer to home for both. Indeed, on the plan, many would have already been struck by ICBMs by the time we would have got there!
Lonely night shifts studying targets on behalf of the crews - I don't think so! He may have rehearsed his lines and studied the launch sequence plan but looking at targets and even knowing which country they were in rather than their precise location - he's dreaming!
I could be wrong, of course, he may have been a senior station executive (who would still have been obliged to adhere to the 2-man principle) but I doubt it given his admitted experience on Bloodhounds and his role in Laarbruch Ops - both tasks usually reserved for below average JO aircrew who could, in those days, be retained in the service to undertake mundane aircrew-related ground tours!
Retard, I don't think so, unless you mean in the QWI context of High Drag!
Be like me - stop reading his drivel - you'll only end up mad like he is!
Now jinda, stop encouraging me over this walt!
Foldie
Sorry old pal but you are deluded. If you remember so well you would realise that the Laarbruch WOC had the Mission Planning cell downstairs with their "Vault" containing all the current "Int". Upstairs was Stn Ops. There we had the dreaded SCARS2 steam driven telegraphic system fed by both SACEUR & No 10 (Read HQSTC or "War Office" as you may).
Upstairs the 24/7 Ops Officer had "2 man control" access to several 6ft cabinets containing TS & UK/US Eyes Only documents, each fitted with two combination locks. The Ops Officer (me) memorised one combination & another Ops Officer had the combination for the second lock. These cabinets contained (amongst other things) a folder with detailed planning/targeting/timing/navigation/defrag timings etc. etc. for every one of the Laarbruch GR1's. Because we had to try & remember umpteen safe combination's, every one in Ops had the second (not theirs) combination written down. - Is that a surprise?
We also had a cabinet that required 2 keys to open it. One key was held by the on-shift Duty Ops Off, the other was held by the duty Cpl (downstairs). That cabinet held the SACEUR & HM Government authentication codes for a nuclear release. This cabinet was also opened almost nightly by SACEUR setting off a "test" message on the SCARS2 teleprinter - usually at 0200hrs due to a bored operator.
In conclusion, you may have the best of intentions with your limited knowledge of what actually happened at a nuclear strike base. The crews knew nothing - other than studying their personal single target during their 3 year tour.
And, yes, every one of the 48 crews at Laarbruch had a different target to drop their vastly different kiloton nukes on - with the MOD planners defining exactly how many friendly people would be instantly killed - It ranged from 100,000 to 300,000.
That said, it is thankfully behind us in the UK - until Israel decides to nuke Iran in the coming months..........
Oh & thank you for your kind comment that I was failed aircrew. Nothing could be further from the truth. I actually asked my boss (Tony Thornthwaite AKA TTT) to be given the position of conventional attack controller (ask John Broadbent - OC XV Sqn) which meant that on a 5 day Taceval I worked my arse off for 5 days rather than just looking after the 5th day nuclear strike launch.....
I've tried to stay away from this thread but, yet again, have been encouraged by a.n.other to respond to the ramblings of SAMXXV as I too was in Germany, on Tornados, in the late 80s, albeit at Bruggen. I also did 2 tours at Laarbruch on Buccs in the 70s. All 3 tours involved sitting on QRA(S) and, whilst Staneval at Bruggen, I was also the station WST Supervising and Training officer.
Most of what SAMXXV states in Post 76 is utter bollocks; he states it in a manner suggesting that only the RAF(G) crews were involved in a potential nuclear holocaust.
Being the nuclear strike controller meant only that you were an aircrew bod on a ground tour, as a station ops officer, given the task on that day of being the man on the radio who released the R-Hour Launch. Since all the target information was held in a secure TS vault that could only be accessed under the '2-man principle' and only by those entitled he could not, as he states, have had access 24/7 to ALL the nuclear targets. I doubt he even actually saw a route map or IP-tgt map!
Targets where? I don't think so! In all the years sat in QRA in Germany, on both Buccs and GR1s, I don't ever recall having to go that far east to hit my Strike targets. All the missions planned were lo-lo, so reaching the Oder was a tad tricky! To have gone hi-lo-hi would have been suicide! I recall that the missions had an RTB leg (nobody asked the obvious question!). The Bucc, with its internal bomb-load, went further than the GR1, which served only to replace the Bucc and so took over the former's targets when it arrived in RAFG in 1993. Most of the targets were much closer to home for both. Indeed, on the plan, many would have already been struck by ICBMs by the time we would have got there!
Lonely night shifts studying targets on behalf of the crews - I don't think so! He may have rehearsed his lines and studied the launch sequence plan but looking at targets and even knowing which country they were in rather than their precise location - he's dreaming!
I could be wrong, of course, he may have been a senior station executive (who would still have been obliged to adhere to the 2-man principle) but I doubt it given his admitted experience on Bloodhounds and his role in Laarbruch Ops - both tasks usually reserved for below average JO aircrew who could, in those days, be retained in the service to undertake mundane aircrew-related ground tours!
Retard, I don't think so, unless you mean in the QWI context of High Drag!
Be like me - stop reading his drivel - you'll only end up mad like he is!
Now jinda, stop encouraging me over this walt!
Foldie
Sorry old pal but you are deluded. If you remember so well you would realise that the Laarbruch WOC had the Mission Planning cell downstairs with their "Vault" containing all the current "Int". Upstairs was Stn Ops. There we had the dreaded SCARS2 steam driven telegraphic system fed by both SACEUR & No 10 (Read HQSTC or "War Office" as you may).
Upstairs the 24/7 Ops Officer had "2 man control" access to several 6ft cabinets containing TS & UK/US Eyes Only documents, each fitted with two combination locks. The Ops Officer (me) memorised one combination & another Ops Officer had the combination for the second lock. These cabinets contained (amongst other things) a folder with detailed planning/targeting/timing/navigation/defrag timings etc. etc. for every one of the Laarbruch GR1's. Because we had to try & remember umpteen safe combination's, every one in Ops had the second (not theirs) combination written down. - Is that a surprise?
We also had a cabinet that required 2 keys to open it. One key was held by the on-shift Duty Ops Off, the other was held by the duty Cpl (downstairs). That cabinet held the SACEUR & HM Government authentication codes for a nuclear release. This cabinet was also opened almost nightly by SACEUR setting off a "test" message on the SCARS2 teleprinter - usually at 0200hrs due to a bored operator.
In conclusion, you may have the best of intentions with your limited knowledge of what actually happened at a nuclear strike base. The crews knew nothing - other than studying their personal single target during their 3 year tour.
And, yes, every one of the 48 crews at Laarbruch had a different target to drop their vastly different kiloton nukes on - with the MOD planners defining exactly how many friendly people would be instantly killed - It ranged from 100,000 to 300,000.
That said, it is thankfully behind us in the UK - until Israel decides to nuke Iran in the coming months..........
Oh & thank you for your kind comment that I was failed aircrew. Nothing could be further from the truth. I actually asked my boss (Tony Thornthwaite AKA TTT) to be given the position of conventional attack controller (ask John Broadbent - OC XV Sqn) which meant that on a 5 day Taceval I worked my arse off for 5 days rather than just looking after the 5th day nuclear strike launch.....
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Do you really think that would be the case? The Islamists don't want a Israeli pull back, they don't want a Israel. There will always be a reason for them to do it, if they can't find one they will make one.
That was sarcasm, btw. Just like your own post was rhetoric.
In answer to your question, yes I do. See the link given a few posts above. If you refuse the veracity of those intentions then you are effectively stating that there is no solution other than war, in which case you can go fight it yourself.
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Well I have to say that I am impressed at your ability to discern the real intentions of entire religious groupings
But I would make a failrly uneducated guess that there are more Islamic people who would like to see Israel gone than there are that don't. In fact I think the last statement is commonly called no sh!t Sherlock. Some of the mild people may put up with Israel, but unfortunitly the percentage of ones who won't is way to large.
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rh200,
You say
and then you do:
No it isn't -> Islamist - definition of Islamist by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
And if it was (or if that is your as-yet unstated definition of it) then your reasoning would be entirely circular. You'd basically be saying "hardline radicals want hardline radical policies to succeed" - I believe that one really does come under the category named for the exclamation aimed at Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's creation.
You said it. Perhaps a bit of information would be preferable to "uneducated guesswork" when trying to discern whether "the percentage of ones who won't is way to [sic] large"?
You say
Actually I don't,
there are more Islamic people who would like to see Israel gone than there are that don't
Islamists is usually a generlized term for the more radical
And if it was (or if that is your as-yet unstated definition of it) then your reasoning would be entirely circular. You'd basically be saying "hardline radicals want hardline radical policies to succeed" - I believe that one really does come under the category named for the exclamation aimed at Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's creation.
I would make a failrly uneducated guess
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Oh bother, he's back!
OK OK, SAMXXV, you may have had more access than I suggested but you still haven't changed:
a) my view of your rants (on threads various).
b) my view of your aircrew ability (I didn't say failed - I said below average; and 'working your arse off' for 5 days in a bunker doesn't make you any greater, better or above average over aircrew on operational flying tours who were actually really working their arses off and having to fly as well, often under difficult conditions in AR5 !)
c) or denied your over-exaggeration of where the targets actually were!
Finally, as Staneval, I was the Night Force Commander in the bunker and so, without bragging, bull****ting or trying to impress had rather more knowledge than you might think or I have displayed; but then I too have signed the Official Secrets Act and now, 5 years retired, do (and will continue to) abide by it - unlike you!
Foldie
OK OK, SAMXXV, you may have had more access than I suggested but you still haven't changed:
a) my view of your rants (on threads various).
b) my view of your aircrew ability (I didn't say failed - I said below average; and 'working your arse off' for 5 days in a bunker doesn't make you any greater, better or above average over aircrew on operational flying tours who were actually really working their arses off and having to fly as well, often under difficult conditions in AR5 !)
c) or denied your over-exaggeration of where the targets actually were!
Finally, as Staneval, I was the Night Force Commander in the bunker and so, without bragging, bull****ting or trying to impress had rather more knowledge than you might think or I have displayed; but then I too have signed the Official Secrets Act and now, 5 years retired, do (and will continue to) abide by it - unlike you!
Foldie
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
with your limited knowledge of what actually happened at a nuclear strike base. The crews knew nothing - other than studying their personal single target during their 3 year tour.
If crews held QRA, on the UK model, each sqn would have had all crews capable of covering one or two high priority QRA targets.
If a crew was on leave was their target uncovered or did crews cover a seondary target? Again, on the UK model all crews covered a secondary target - that made 3 SACEUR targets.
I know that RAF F4 covered GAF F104 targets and the timings were hard to achieve given the F4s slow speed
. That would suggest they had more than one secondary target.Did they have any UK independent targets?
As for actual targets, in 1974, at Cranditz, we studied a particular RAFG target. What we did not have of course was the knowledge that it was a nuclear target nor did we have the DMPI and we did not have the tracks and timings.
Knowledge of the targets did not require a rocket scientist. What was really TS was the routing and timings.
For all SAM's undoubted expertise it is clear that he too did not have the big picture.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In the case of Iran the targets will be well known to both sides and routes and timings will be the critcal secret.
Nixor ut Ledo
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Can I respectfully suggest to all that this bout of chest thumping etc over SAMXXV stop now. There's just too much information flying about which really ought not to be out there. Mods (Wholigan) have a good hard look at this!
Let's all just accept that SAMXXV is not just a walt and that he does know stuff. Taunting him is just going to bring out more stuff that would be much, much better hidden away for some time yet.
Let's all just accept that SAMXXV is not just a walt and that he does know stuff. Taunting him is just going to bring out more stuff that would be much, much better hidden away for some time yet.
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To take things back somewhat towards the original topic.
It seems from reports in the press over the weekend that the IAEA were to release a report today which would, for the first time, indicate circumstantial evidence of Iranian plans to develop a nuclear weapon. Previous reports had stated only that a weapons program was an available option.
It seems fairly clear that some parties both in Government(s) and the press have been aware of the alleged content of the report for at least the last week. Hence the muted rattling of sabres locally.
I tend to hold the view that the "Iranian bomb" could be this generation's Cuba '62. But that remains to be seen.
Reading a few headlines on the net it appears today that a couple of statesmen from what you might call interested parties have called on the IAEA to delay or indeed reconsider publishing said report and it hasn't materialised so far.
It seems from reports in the press over the weekend that the IAEA were to release a report today which would, for the first time, indicate circumstantial evidence of Iranian plans to develop a nuclear weapon. Previous reports had stated only that a weapons program was an available option.
It seems fairly clear that some parties both in Government(s) and the press have been aware of the alleged content of the report for at least the last week. Hence the muted rattling of sabres locally.
I tend to hold the view that the "Iranian bomb" could be this generation's Cuba '62. But that remains to be seen.
Reading a few headlines on the net it appears today that a couple of statesmen from what you might call interested parties have called on the IAEA to delay or indeed reconsider publishing said report and it hasn't materialised so far.
Official Secrets Act Update
For those still serving, and for those who retired several years or more ago, I thought I would just point out that when I retired in 2009 I was required to resign the Official Secrets Act and was suprised to find that it had been updated quite significantly from the original I signed in 1974 (clearly due to books published and other exposes following GW1). For those interested, you can view the content in PSF.
Also, just because the RAF dispensed with a particular capability 13 years ago does not mean that the procedures for employing / authorising the use of a similar capability are not still in use by other NATO countries.
Beware what you post !
Also, just because the RAF dispensed with a particular capability 13 years ago does not mean that the procedures for employing / authorising the use of a similar capability are not still in use by other NATO countries.
Beware what you post !
