Armed Forces pension
Join Date: Oct 2001
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wrt issues such as a return of service does anyone know of an expert on employment law?
From my research an employer can change your conditions so long as they can prove that they had to (MoD out of money) and they did it fairly (which they are trying to do) and there was a consultancy period (which there is). This would appear to hold true if you were (for example) trying to claim constructive dismissal.
Where would one stand as far as a return of service is concerned? To my mind the PA spine isn't a return of service so much as a qualifying period. However a lot of qualifications and courses do carry returns of service which, if accepted and honoured, will from Apr 12 onwards result in you still serving when the changes take place. i.e. no matter how much you dislike the changes you can't legally leave...or can you?
The exam question is: How big a change in the pension would it take for it to be seen as unreasonable to enforce a return of service accepted before the details of the changes were released?
From my research an employer can change your conditions so long as they can prove that they had to (MoD out of money) and they did it fairly (which they are trying to do) and there was a consultancy period (which there is). This would appear to hold true if you were (for example) trying to claim constructive dismissal.
Where would one stand as far as a return of service is concerned? To my mind the PA spine isn't a return of service so much as a qualifying period. However a lot of qualifications and courses do carry returns of service which, if accepted and honoured, will from Apr 12 onwards result in you still serving when the changes take place. i.e. no matter how much you dislike the changes you can't legally leave...or can you?
The exam question is: How big a change in the pension would it take for it to be seen as unreasonable to enforce a return of service accepted before the details of the changes were released?
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My understanding is that going onto PAS does as you say involve a 5 yr return of service to QUALIFY for the pension. You are able to leave within this timescale but you will revert to the old pay scale for your pension. I know of an RN Lt Cdr who has done this so you don't have anything to lose by taking the PAS.
Vox,
The system has stated that those with 10 yrs or less at the point the new pension is introduced will not be affected. Would this 10yr bracket be valid if there was a delay in the introduction for any reason, or would they stick with 10yr from 1Apr 15?
Just asking
The system has stated that those with 10 yrs or less at the point the new pension is introduced will not be affected. Would this 10yr bracket be valid if there was a delay in the introduction for any reason, or would they stick with 10yr from 1Apr 15?
Just asking
Vox,
My understanding is that the current intent is that there will be no change for those who are over 45 on 1 Apr 12. This is not the same as 10 years to serve from 2015.
The problem with all this is nothing is as yet firmed up, even to the point that the planned consultation seems to have been delayed due to the lack of firm proposals!
My understanding is that the current intent is that there will be no change for those who are over 45 on 1 Apr 12. This is not the same as 10 years to serve from 2015.
The problem with all this is nothing is as yet firmed up, even to the point that the planned consultation seems to have been delayed due to the lack of firm proposals!
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What I have seen in black and white is that 'if you are 45 years old or over on 1 April 2012, you will be protected'. What we really need is the Framework Document - then those understandably worried souls who have contributed to this thread would know whether they really have anything to worry about. Here are some examples:
The person who is going to PAS - once you see in black and white what career averaging means to you, you may well not be worried.
The person who leaves in late 2015 - once we have the Framework Document, it may be clear that the introduction will slip to 2016 (Hutton did say that the Armed Forces might take a little longer)
The Forces Pension Society is keeping close to MOD sources on this as we have a huge interest (and input) to their work. Keep an eye on our website www.forpen.co.uk .
The person who is going to PAS - once you see in black and white what career averaging means to you, you may well not be worried.
The person who leaves in late 2015 - once we have the Framework Document, it may be clear that the introduction will slip to 2016 (Hutton did say that the Armed Forces might take a little longer)
The Forces Pension Society is keeping close to MOD sources on this as we have a huge interest (and input) to their work. Keep an eye on our website www.forpen.co.uk .
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Details on the agreement between HMT and the MoD on accrued rights for those on AFPS 75 and 05 have now been published on the Defence Intranet under DIN 2012DIN01-063: 'Pension rights accrued in Armed Forces Pension Scheme 1975 and Armed Forces Pension Scheme 2005'. Enjoy!
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Anyone? Down route also. Will there be preserved rights for gratuity and the IPP or am I waiting till 60 to get the first pennies of my pension?
Anyone care to comment on orca's original statement, IE what happens if an individual refuses to accept but due to financial circumstances cannot PVR due to drop in flying pay? Will there be any quick way out if you refuse the new terms?
Anyone care to comment on orca's original statement, IE what happens if an individual refuses to accept but due to financial circumstances cannot PVR due to drop in flying pay? Will there be any quick way out if you refuse the new terms?
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Just had a look and although the DIN is UNCLASSIFIED there is a non communication outside of MoD rider on it. Sorry, you'll just have to wait or get to a DII system.
For those with no DII you can get it on AirSpace
https://airspace.raf.mod.uk/informat...r=false&page=1
https://airspace.raf.mod.uk/informat...r=false&page=1
VinRouge,
It's good news - well as good as it gets. It looks like a hybrid scheme - whatever you have accumulated up to the point we chop across to the new pension scheme you get to keep AND more importantly you get to draw as you would have done on the old scheme. Any service accrued under the new scheme will be paid out separately.
e.g. I will have done 16 years pensionable service by 2014. If I stay on until my 44 point in 2020 and then leave, I will get my AFPS 75 pension paid as normal for the 17 years service up to 2015 (or whenever it chops across) which will be uprated at 55. I then get a second chunk of pension for the remaining 5 or so years in uniform, but the rules for when that is paid out appear to be being worked out.
Could have been worse I guess. It may still be worse come the Budget if George decides to tax pension lump sums which will hammer your gratuity!
It's good news - well as good as it gets. It looks like a hybrid scheme - whatever you have accumulated up to the point we chop across to the new pension scheme you get to keep AND more importantly you get to draw as you would have done on the old scheme. Any service accrued under the new scheme will be paid out separately.
e.g. I will have done 16 years pensionable service by 2014. If I stay on until my 44 point in 2020 and then leave, I will get my AFPS 75 pension paid as normal for the 17 years service up to 2015 (or whenever it chops across) which will be uprated at 55. I then get a second chunk of pension for the remaining 5 or so years in uniform, but the rules for when that is paid out appear to be being worked out.
Could have been worse I guess. It may still be worse come the Budget if George decides to tax pension lump sums which will hammer your gratuity!
I'm sort of hoping that changes to lump sum taxation will be limited to just lowering the threshold from £400k+ that it is now to something that still won't penalise humble folk like us. Wouldn't put it past the buggers though.
A very "me specific" question:
What do you reckon will happen to the PA pension of someone who hasn't done 5 years on the scheme when the changes occur. I suppose they could say that I didn't do 5 years on the scheme and therefore revert to an unenhanced pension.
Not much point in staying in if that's the case ( unless I want to serve until 60!!)
It strikes me that if you won't get paid anything on pension 2015 until your 60th birthday, the retention aspect of the new AFPS will be zero.
A very "me specific" question:
What do you reckon will happen to the PA pension of someone who hasn't done 5 years on the scheme when the changes occur. I suppose they could say that I didn't do 5 years on the scheme and therefore revert to an unenhanced pension.
Not much point in staying in if that's the case ( unless I want to serve until 60!!)
It strikes me that if you won't get paid anything on pension 2015 until your 60th birthday, the retention aspect of the new AFPS will be zero.
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Overall, one or two items slightly better than expected. Would go as far as saying "pleasantly surprised". A very well done for all those in the loop and consulting with Gideon as to what is getting forced upon us.
The jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
Any document that tells me that my pension that I signed for just a few years ago under the 'offer to transfer' is going to cease soon, yet can only offer that 'the rules of the new scheme, including when pensions will be paid, are under development' is pretty shocking.
For those who transferred to AFPS05 (not me thankfully) it looks like a complete and utter shoeing.
Any document that tells me that my pension that I signed for just a few years ago under the 'offer to transfer' is going to cease soon, yet can only offer that 'the rules of the new scheme, including when pensions will be paid, are under development' is pretty shocking.
For those who transferred to AFPS05 (not me thankfully) it looks like a complete and utter shoeing.
Those who made a move to AFPS05 on the basis that would be serving to 55 are in for a rude awakening. Their offers to transfer would have shown them that the pension they would receive at the 55 point would, on either scheme, be about the same. However, the AFPS05 scheme added a few sweeteners, such as 4 time D-I-S, so looked like the best move. However, the new scheme stops them from making their 55 point on AFPS05 so all the disadvantages of the EDP now kick in.
Examples for 2 identical wg cdrs who were both on AFPRS75 till the O-T-T (I've used the figures in the DIN):
27 years of pensionable service at the point of transition to the Future AFPS. He leaves the Armed Forces after 34 years of pensionable service at the age of 55.
Bloke who stayed on AFPS75:
He will be entitled to receive, as his accrued AFPS 75 rights, a taxable Full Career Pension of around £32,000 per annum. He will also be entitled to a tax free lump sum of around £96,000.
Bloke who moved to AFPS05:
He will be entitled to receive, as his accrued AFPS 05 rights, a taxable Pension of around £28,500 per annum. He will also be entitled to a tax free lump sum of around £85,500.
In both cases they will be entitled to pension benefits for the 7 years of pensionable service under the Future AFPS in accordance with the rules of that scheme. The rules of the new scheme, including when pensions will be paid, are under development.
So for changing to a pension scheme that evaporated 9 years later the AFPS05 bloke takes a spanking. If he stay on the old scheme he would have been ok; if the new scheme had seen him to retirement he would have been ok. But moving from 75 to 05 then forced to AFPS15 is a major kicking.
Wonder if anyone will challenge their Offer To Transfer paperwork...
Examples for 2 identical wg cdrs who were both on AFPRS75 till the O-T-T (I've used the figures in the DIN):
27 years of pensionable service at the point of transition to the Future AFPS. He leaves the Armed Forces after 34 years of pensionable service at the age of 55.
Bloke who stayed on AFPS75:
He will be entitled to receive, as his accrued AFPS 75 rights, a taxable Full Career Pension of around £32,000 per annum. He will also be entitled to a tax free lump sum of around £96,000.
Bloke who moved to AFPS05:
He will be entitled to receive, as his accrued AFPS 05 rights, a taxable Pension of around £28,500 per annum. He will also be entitled to a tax free lump sum of around £85,500.
In both cases they will be entitled to pension benefits for the 7 years of pensionable service under the Future AFPS in accordance with the rules of that scheme. The rules of the new scheme, including when pensions will be paid, are under development.
So for changing to a pension scheme that evaporated 9 years later the AFPS05 bloke takes a spanking. If he stay on the old scheme he would have been ok; if the new scheme had seen him to retirement he would have been ok. But moving from 75 to 05 then forced to AFPS15 is a major kicking.
Wonder if anyone will challenge their Offer To Transfer paperwork...
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Likewise glad I stuck with AFPS 75, on 3 grounds really;
1. They never offer you a better deal really (yes I know, cynical!)
2. If you don't make Cdr in the RN it is retirment at 53, therefore all benefits of AFPS 05 go out of the window as you have NOT SERVED until 55!!
3. If you bang out at anytime before 55 (as I subsequently did!) you are at least 10% better off under AFPS 75, albeit you were, conversley, roughly 10% better off under AFPS 05 if you managed to serve to 55 and live to 70!!
Roll on my 75th Birthday when I reckon I will have drawn as much pension as pay, well worth celebrating, even if it is in the distance of time!!
Of interest I wonder if anyone will sue for constructive dismissal and/or unfair renumeration if they are not permitted to serve until 55 under AFPS 05, will be an interesting ruling........
1. They never offer you a better deal really (yes I know, cynical!)
2. If you don't make Cdr in the RN it is retirment at 53, therefore all benefits of AFPS 05 go out of the window as you have NOT SERVED until 55!!
3. If you bang out at anytime before 55 (as I subsequently did!) you are at least 10% better off under AFPS 75, albeit you were, conversley, roughly 10% better off under AFPS 05 if you managed to serve to 55 and live to 70!!
Roll on my 75th Birthday when I reckon I will have drawn as much pension as pay, well worth celebrating, even if it is in the distance of time!!
Of interest I wonder if anyone will sue for constructive dismissal and/or unfair renumeration if they are not permitted to serve until 55 under AFPS 05, will be an interesting ruling........