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Your husband will never be promoted if you wear trousers

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Your husband will never be promoted if you wear trousers

Old 11th Oct 2011, 18:54
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A more divisive and segregated system I have never seen surpassed.
When I did the Vulcan course at the Woodford factory in '58 the dining facilities were extremely class conscious. As was all factory life then. There were five, yes five, classes of dining facilities. The shopfloor workers sat on benches at long , scrubbed, tables. Foremen sat four to a table and so on. I think the RAF trainees (regardless of rank) were on about level three and we had plastic table clothes and plastic flowers on our table. Even the IT, American owned, company I worked for had separate dining facilities for senior management and Directors. Known as the 'golden trough'.

There will always be a distinction of privilege between ranks because that's how the system operates. An officer eating with his men is a good thing, now and then, but neither he nor they would want it all the time.
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Old 11th Oct 2011, 20:22
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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I heard a story (apocraphal?) that an RAF Officer was engaged (discretely) to an airwoman who did not serve on the same airbase. He asked permission to take her to the summer ball, but the request was refused by the PMC. The officer's response (supported by his fiance) was to go into the local town and hire a pair of escorts for the evening. He took great delight in introducing them to the Stn Cdr, PMC and their guests, and went on to explain who they actually were and why he had to bring alternative female company.

What is actually true, was a Sqn collegue many years ago who was engaged to a civilian employee who worked in Admin wing. Sadly, the PMC (OC Admin) refused to allow her into the mess for any functions because she was not of the appropriate CS grade.



My story , reverses the gender .

As a serving Corporal , at a N Lincolnshire Air Defence base flying English built interceptors, the then wife , who happened to be a reporter on the Louth Standard , was invited to the BofB Ball at the Mess with her husband.

At the time , I still wanted to make a career in the RAF , so worked through all the commisioned ranks up to OC Leafy , to seek permission to attend . He approved, but sought clearance from the PMC , who was Henry P( and I believe an ex OR) who refused . As my wife pointed out to the Staish, when asked not to write the article about the whole saga , I would have been welcome if I had been a rapist.

Unsurprisingly, I PVR'd not long after .
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Old 11th Oct 2011, 20:38
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I had experience of several sides of a pretty-odd-shaped-coin during my time in the military. Combined messing at small stations like Watton and Byron, avoiding sitting at les pompiers table at Le Luc, crew tents and all-ranks 'dining' during GW1, officers-only aircrew crewrooms on board the grey-funnel-line, being served Christmas Dinner (as a squaddie) by the Wuperts then doing the same for the 'chaps' years later... However, anyone thinking that the subject-under-discussion is purely a military matter is mistaken, as goudie and others have suggested.

These days I have the privilege to work for a customer that operates 2 working vessels on duties primarily around the northern part of the British Isles. When the newest of those 2 ships was on the drawing board, the customer had to seek permission from the DTI to include combined messing in her design. A previous ship operated by the same people as recently as the 1970s had up to 7 messes in use at any one time. However, far from snobbishness and feudal custom, the reason this permission had to be sought is that the DTI had to be satisfied that the members of the ships crew would have enough time and space away from supervisory grades to be able to relax when not on duty. Morals and socialism don't factor - maintenance of a happy, functional and efficient ship and crew is what it's all about.

As for people living in accommodation/ owning stuff they can't afford - that's probably part of the reason we find ourselves in our current financial straits, no?

BEags, were you and another ex-Bucc mate cycled through N Luffenham around Sep 1976? Might've met you when on my initial AMTC course.
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Old 11th Oct 2011, 20:55
  #104 (permalink)  
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Primary reason for segregation is that, whilst doing the job you are paid for, you may one day have to send your subordinates into a situation that is highly dangerous and will probably result in them not coming out alive. Being all good mates around the same table won't make this any easier.

Rank has it's privileges, that is part of the carrot, part of what we work to achieve and has been alive and well in the forces since they first formed up. If it troubles you then don't join.

The only exception, which I found very acceptable, was the all ranks aircrew mess at some RAF stations,(El Adem), when we visited, which seemed to be Officers, WOs and Sgts. A lethal mix for a major PU.
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Old 11th Oct 2011, 21:51
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Originally Posted by parabellum
Primary reason for segregation is that, whilst doing the job you are paid for, you may one day have to send your subordinates into a situation that is highly dangerous and will probably result in them not coming out alive. Being all good mates around the same table won't make this any easier.
What a complete load of absolute bolleaux, so far away from actuality to be total and utter dinosaur tosh.

Watch any of the current real time reports from the front line and there are countless examples of JO, SNCO, JNCO and soldier co existing in some of the more dire situations yet there is no blurring of the lines when it comes to getting the job done.

Even us modern day Aircrew mates manage to eat, sleep, live and exist in close proximity and still deal with what Ops has to offer as a team.

The sooner the dinosaurs die out the better .
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Old 11th Oct 2011, 23:05
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst increasingly bemused at some of the tales that have emerged in this thread, I have been thus far been disinclined to enter the fray on what seems to be a substantially light blue phenomenon, and one that certainly bears no resemblance to anything I have ever experienced whilst serving either ashore or afloat in two navies, I really have to take issue with the words underlined in the following quotation:

It wasn't until 1993 that the WRNS became part of the Royal Navy. Before that they were effectively treated as civilians even though they could be in thick of the action. - Fareastdriver

Quite apart from the fact that, in its original form, the Women's Royal Naval Service was formed earlier than the Royal Air Force, never mind becoming part of the Royal Navy in 1993, I truly cannot believe that any Wren officer or rating, and certainly not one with whom I served, or commanded, would remotely have considered herself as either a civilian, or would have believed that anyone else considered herself as such.

In conclusion, I can't find a more appropriate comment than that made by SFFP just above (and which I hope he won't me repeating), "What a complete load of absolute bolleaux, so far away from actuality to be total and utter dinosaur tosh."

Now leaning back and looking forward to more ripping yarns of stripes on handbags .....

Jack
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 00:22
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I think the fact that JNCOs and SNCOs having a right to their space when not at work is being overlooked here is dreadfully sad.

Let's all pile into the same married patch together, and find that the NCOs can't relax because 'the Officers might be watching', and all the while, paradoxically, it's the Officers who feel on parade 100% of the time.

Remind me who the winner is in the above situation someone, please?

Socialists, accept the more subtle benefits of segregation please, and if you can't, then at least appreciate that your input to this is limited.
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 01:22
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Nice Castle

Absolutely true. The same argument stands for separate messing. An SAC needs to be relaxed and able to stand at the NAAFI bar at the end of the working day and bitch and moan about his sgt, FS and officer whilst not worrying about looking over his shoulder to see if the bloke has just walked in. This is how it should be.

It's a very simple premise. A similar situation exists for SNCOs and officers looking up and down the ranks - or however you want to word it.

I also agree with the carrot argument. Where is the incentive to advance and achieve if you can enjoy the same perks as your superior (eg same housing standard) without striving to be advanced to that level?

The Russians proved this socialist/communist model did not work. The same conflict of interests exists when citizens are as well off on benefits as those who work. Surely this is obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense?

I am sick of the 'entitled' mentality in Britain. Earn it.

And before it starts, there is nothing to do but congratulate the Cpl living in the nice 4 bedroom house, privately, mentioned earlier. Well done to him; maybe he has what he has due to hard work and sensible investment and not sending his money up a wall every night.
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 03:25
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Seac

Apologies for the second entry, I've just read your post.

Why on earth would you have wanted to/expected to go to an officers mess function as a Cpl? As a guest of a guest? You're just stirring for fun fella, why would you think that would be a good idea? As an nco, surely you were aware of how things work?

As for the comment that your wife made and you apparently agree with, "I'd have been welcome if I were a rapist."

.............. That makes you both sound so dull that your pvr is as welcome a release for those of us still in the RAF as it evidently was for you. Of course rapists are welcome in the mess, obviously. I bet the stn cdr was delighted to be dealing with your wife's nonsence instead of running his unit. Give me strength.

ZH875

The MPA Sgts mess isn't very welcoming really, is it? I've been there too and it really wasn't pleasant. Very tribal.
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 07:11
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The daft thing here is, and it's a point which most of you supposed clever folk have completely missed, that it's only on base that this outdated class system exists.

As has been mentioned there are squillions of examples of enlisted folk living happily in their own homes alongside everyone from bin man to bank manager.

The most popular place on a Wednesday night at Lyneham was the NAAFI Bop, so much so that a Station Order was written forbidding SNCO and Officers attending. Both said messes had plenty of young folk who wanted nothing more than a few beers, a dance and to socialise with like minded similar aged folk. If they had gone to a bop in Swindon no one would have batted an eyelid but mixing with the enlisted filth was made a crime.

It's time for the dinosaurs to die
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 07:47
  #111 (permalink)  

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I agree with Union Jack about the WRNS not being civilians. The way I heard it was that at one time - maybe always? - a WRNS officer had to spend some time as a rating, rather like all coppers have to do time on the beat first.

Ergo, however unlikely in practice, all could theoretically be considered "potential officers".

Heard that separately from a couple of (light blue) mates who both married Jennies - any confirmation from the Dark Blue??

As to "segregated" housing, I think SFFP above misses the point. It's doesn't matter who your neighbours are - if they are in a different organisation. Which kind of kills the "class" argument.

When the then newly acquired Milady Teeters and self first moved into quarters, she too raised a beautifully formed eyebrow. The I said (she was a nurse):

"How would you fancy living next door to matron?"

And suddenly she understood ..........
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 07:47
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SFFP,

I think that one of he points being raised here is that SNCOs and Offrs being prohibited from going to the NAAFI bop is for the benefit of the troops. It is in order that they can have a whinge and moan about the chain of command without having to look over their shoulders; it is not because they are perceived as being 'unclean'. Because, as I am sure you are aware, there are some folks in the chain that are unfamiliar with/unappreciative of 'constructive criticism'

Duncs
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 07:51
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Hierachy privelege is not soley the domain of the Armed forces, as has been mentioned earlier.
A company once based its company car allocation, according to seniority, on the Ford Cortina, of which there were 18 models. A junior salesman was given a basic two door saloon whilst the MD drove a Ghia. When a new salesmen questioned why he had only a two door model, the MD told him it was because Ford didn't make a one door model!
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 08:08
  #114 (permalink)  
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SFFP, Duncs has just put forward exactly the point I was thinking. Also, not good for an officer to be present when the occasional fight breaks out. Also how would you like Happy Hour in the OM to be open to all? The buggers would probably nick all the chips

There are plenty of opportunities for mixed functions on the Squadron or unit. And, how many times have we had a poking in the chest from one of the men on these occasions when the beer has been flowing? Occasionally, almost essential, but not all the time.

An aside, when my wife was in the nursing officer's mess there was no bar. You had to knock on the door of matron's suite and ask for a glass of sherry which was carefully measured out from the decanter in her cocktail cabinet. Maximum of two glasses an evening.

Do I recall correctly that decades ago no officer below the rank of Flt Lt was allowed to keep booze in their rooms in the OM?
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 08:22
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Shame about the thread drift here in what started life as a discussion about what is, a peculiarity of living on RAF Married patches. I have never lived on an Army patch but NEVER came across wives pulling rank in the RN.

As we moved onto the subject of living in Single Living Accomodation, I remember that not so long ago , you needed to get permission from the mess president to even have one's wife stay overnight during functions! On the subject of booze, there are two sides to the argument, you can treat people like adults or encourage them to drink alcohol in the bar provided, which improves the mess profits and ensures that others can keep an eye on those who are drinking too much.

Remember though, we are talking about Military Service here not Tesco's or the NHS and persons being subject to Queen's regulations.
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 08:25
  #116 (permalink)  
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Also how would you like Happy Hour in the OM to be open to all? The buggers would probably nick all the chips
Chips? Chips?? Maybe in a RAF Offrs' Mess, but in our Mess, it was swan sandwiches - with crusts removed, of course!

Sigh........ Chips, how quaint!
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 08:49
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Remove the crusts from swan sandwiches?! How irredeemably petit bourgeois.
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 09:06
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Remove the crusts from swan sandwiches?! How irredeemably petit bourgeois
In our Mess, we have a steward to remove the crusts for us. Standards and all that.
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Old 12th Oct 2011, 09:19
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Happy Hour in an Army Mess

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Old 12th Oct 2011, 09:54
  #120 (permalink)  
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What a complete load of absolute bolleaux, so far away from actuality to be total and utter dinosaur tosh.

Sorry to have pricked your balloon SFFP, you must be one of the newer fellows, or is just an in growing chip? Obviously you have never been in the position of sending the lads out? Thought not. Never entered your head that the armed forces actually involved fighting rather than just socialising?

It isn't all about pissing it it up when every opportunity prevails. When based in Ripon, Yorkshire, there were many, many pubs where we all met, all ranks, mixed, in Aden we shared every amenity, when 'Up Country'.

If the Dinosaurs die then so will the basic tenets that keep the armed forces from becoming just another great big huggy fluffy and totally useless Malcolm Club.
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