Your husband will never be promoted if you wear trousers

[threeputt]

EXASCOT

Sqn Ldrs and above or officers over the age of 30 were permitted to keep and consume alchohol in their rooms.

3p

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

With regrads to the article, I noted that one of the writers former neighbours has commented; she didn't appear to think much of Annie Waller.

Duncs

[Pontius Navigator]

At ISK there was an egalitarian movement for SNCO aircrew to use the OM Scruffs' bar for post-flight debriefs. The most resolute rejection of this move came not from the officers but some SNCOs and most Masters.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Originally Posted by parabellum

or is just an in growing chip?

How utterly unexpected that was

Sorry you and a few others do not get it but the reality is that at home base the class system is alive and kicking whilst off base or even on the front line folk seem to be able to co exist quite nicely indeed

[Scuttled]

SFFP

It's only you harping on about class. The 'chip on shoulder' comment keeps being thrown at you as that is how you come across.

As has been stated pretty clearly many times, it's not a class thing - it's a discipline thing. Simplistically:

a. SAC, bad day, drinks too much, shouts a bit in the NAAFI but can't (luckily) grab his sgt or Rodney by the neck and tell him what he thinks of him. Next day hangover, no harm done.

b. SNCO/Rodney, bad day, drinks too much, gets over emotional and makes an arse of himself. Other parties haven't seen it, next day hangover, apologies to peers, no sniggering airmen/sgts/officers (del as necessary), no harm done.

I made this point 10 posts back; it's for the protection of all ranks. I'm overseas without any messing system and I do enjoy a beer after work a few nights a week. I have found a bar that the lads don't use at all which is now my local, or mess bar, for the reasons outlined above. However I will happily join them for the international rugby, before leaving them to it again so I don't get in the way.

It is that simple.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Strangely enough I have managed to go off down route with a mixed rank crew for years now with hardly any occurances of the problems you suggest.

Plenty of young airmen/women have come along as SVC's, ATSY, Movers etc etc and have managed to include themselves without any problems what so ever. We all manage to work together and socialise together and generally get along fine.

The great beauty of this is the cross pollination that occurs with non Aircrew folk suddenly realising that most of the negative crew room talk with regards to us grow bags is tosh. When they realise that most of us NCA are ex tradesmen and that pilots are in general very approachable and thoroughly nice individuals who will happily share their experiences of how to be, so to speak.

I fully accept that to some I will always be seen as an uppity baldrick with a chip on my shoulder but in my 37 years I have only ever seen this class divide thing as a hindrance as opposed to a help.

Sgt Smith or FG Off Bloggs go to the local pub, pull a very nice young lady, take her back to the mess and give her the good news and no one bats an eye lid.

Sgt Smith or FG Off Bloggs go to another bar on camp pull a very nice young airwoman take her back to the block and give her the good news and there is all hell to pay.

What the **** is that all about

[Willard Whyte]

With regrads to the article, I noted that one of the writers former neighbours has commented; she didn't appear to think much of Annie Waller.

My wife and I lived there at the time too. Our experience backs up Annie's general impression; perhaps said contributor is one of the RCWs in question. There were some deeply unpleasant and anti-social folk on the patch a few years ago, and Annie was not of that particular 'clique'.

[goudie]

SFFP

I think you're confusing the camaraderie that exists between aircrew and ground crew, when going down route and on detachments, with the efficient running of an operational RAF Base. The efficient running of the Base is Dependant on everyone living by the rule book. After 37 years service I thought you would have realised that.

[Fitter2]

Long ago, when the RAF was a different world, and Yatesbury was a busy electronics school, in the interests of social life there was a weekly Bingo night run by one of the officers' wives, and a few of her friends came to keep her company. Mysteriously,when it came to the accompanying raffle at the end of the evening, the prizes were selected by the organiser after the ticket holder was determined, with the good stuff going to her friends.

A boycott of the event for a month, with a discreet word to the SWO resulted in a compromise where a Corporal's wife ran the raffle.

Conversely, where sport was involved rank appeared irrelevant during the activity.

Inter-rank occasions work somewhat better than RCW ones, in my experience.

[Exascot]

Threeput, Thank you. I am sure that somewhere in storage back in the UK I have the Mess Rules book for NHT for 1979. It would make great reading now.

[Pontius Navigator]

Goudie, quite right. Down route or on Det you all muck in together and effectively outside the CoC.

[BEagle]

Exascot / Threeput, I thought the cut-off was 29 years old?

Anyway, at RAFC Cranwell in 1973 I used the boot of my MG Midget parked out in the cold - much better at keeping things cool than my room was.

Is there still some rule about not being allowed to take some alcohol with you on the MPA airbridge unless you're either some civvy contractor or at least a Sqn Ldr? When I finally made Sqn Ldr Spec Aircrew, I made a point of taking half a bottle of scotch with me to quaff at half-time in the ASI pig pen. Well, not all of it, of course, just a little sharpener to dull the joy of 'Pitch Black' (yet again) on the next leg if the videoplayer batteries hadn't all died.

[Jig Peter]

Class Consciousness +

"Way back when" my brother-in-law, a young industrial chemist on his way to fame and fortune accepted a middle management post with a brewery in Norfolk. This was a new thing for the company, as they had never had a chemist of any kind in all their history. On his first day, my b-in-l was invited to select his company car from a list he was shown. "I'd like the Rover", he said, all smiles "Oh no" came the reply, Rovers are for Directors" (I did say it was a long time ago). "Ok then, I'll take the Triumph saloon". "Sorry, but 6-cylinder cars are for Senior Managers".
He was allowed to choose a Standard Vanguard, a choice accepted by Personnel rather grudgingly as his was a new staff position and there was no precedent "But it's a bit big for Middle Managers, you know".

Compared with that, I found the RAF very un-class-conscious ...

Years later, after leaving the Service, I was surprised to find that De H's at Hatfield had no less than 5 Dining Rooms, called "Messes", all segregated into sections for tradesmen, middle and senior management.
I gather that that was all changed in an early effort to cut down expenses.
Working in Germany some years afterwards for an AEG subsidiary, all workers, including the MD, ate in the same dining hall, which only seemed sensible, for at least most of us knew what everybody looked like.

[Ron Cake]

So Transport crews all muck in together when they're down the route do they? In the late 60s they didn't. In the transit hotel at Muhurraq (Britannia House was it - or was that Khormaksar?) the bar was sectioned off by a screen. On one side Officers and on the other, NCO aircrew. You had to lean round where the partition ended at the bar to socialise.

Looking back it all seems a bit daft.

[pulse1]

Years later, after leaving the Service, I was surprised to find that De H's at Hatfield had no less than 5 Dining Rooms, called "Messes", all segregated into sections for tradesmen, middle and senior management.

I was once a "young industrial chemist" and in my experience companies engaged in aeronautical work (e.g. Dowty Rotol) were far worse for this kind of segregation. I had always assumed it was because they worked closely with the RAF and MoD.

When the British class ridden disease came to company cars it was ridiculous and the motor industry exploited it perfectly.

[Old-Duffer]

Can't recall if we've had the:

Officers and their Ladies
NCOs and their Wives
Other ranks and their Women

Two accounts from my past spring to mind on this Thread.

First, I organised a dinner at a well known Jaguar base near Norwich. Dress was No: 5 or DJ. The NCOs who attended turned up their No: 5s and a great evening was had by all.

Second, I organised a dinner at Wycombe where the principal external guest was a female officer whose husband was a corporal. There was never any suggestion that he should not attend and the 2**'s main concern was that he MUST BE THERE. Again no problem.

I think we make too much of this 'rank and status' thing. There are good reasons why it's there and it is no different from civvy street, except that it might be more 'formalised' than 'implied'.

During a long but exceptionally undistinguished career, I took the view that if I had to throw the weight of my rank around, in order to make things happen, then it was most probably (though not always) my failure.

Old Duffer

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Ron Cake

So Transport crews all muck in together when they're down the route do they? In the late 60s they didn't. In the transit hotel at Muhurraq (Britannia House was it - or was that Khormaksar?) the bar was sectioned off by a screen. On one side Officers and on the other, NCO aircrew. You had to lean round where the partition ended at the bar to socialise.

Looking back it all seems a bit daft.

Ron, digging into the memory cells and back 47 years, I think Khormakksar had two. The "Merryfield" IIRC, aircon and near the flight line and therefore used by the aircrew and the Red Sea (?) non-aircon and used by the groundcrew including gnd eng Os.

[Wensleydale]

Falkland Islands, RAF Stanley Floatel, 1985.

The ORs had a club/bar on the other side of the Landrover park: every Friday evening was a Bring a Boss night. All went well until one of the lads had a little too much to drink, saw the WRAF who he considered his girlfriend talking to another chap, and decided to take action. One assault with beer bottle on an officer later and said young lad no longer has a career. (And all Bring a Boss nights cancelled).

Its why the Orderly Officer sent the orderly corporal to sort out any trouble in the NAAFI - the consequences of any assault on an officer are severe. Alcohol, Young Airmen, and Officers do not mix!

[Pontius Navigator]

WD, we had a similar incident, or rather we were looking after the airman awaiting courts martial.

The case was cut and dried. He had struck an officer. The officer at the time was 'dancing' with an airwoman to whom the airman was about to become engaged.

The mitigating circumstances were set out in MAFL. The airman was mightily relieved to receive a mere fine of over £700 - well over £1000 in todays money.

The officer of course was blameless but was asked to consider whether a career in the Royal Air Force was his best course of action. He agreed that a PVR might be a good idea.

It might be from the age of dinosaurs but in a civilian court would the result have been any different?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Scuttled, I think that if you read it again

the then wife , who happened to be a reporter on the Louth Standard , was invited to the BofB Ball at the Mess with her husband.

Then you may understand what seac was on about.

Back to the thread....It seems clear to me that the woman was unsuited to her primary role as wife of Flt Lt Peter. She's also so thin skinned that she would never have survived overseas life in the 60's. If she was so loud(her words) she was clearly in denial because to take offence at the oddities of RAF life shows a sad weakness of character. My wife just told the a*****les to foxtrot oscar until they learned some manners. It worked..... I retired as a Flt Lt