Britains Forces being brought to their knees
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TOFO
Spot on there TOFO
A quick scan of the pre election Conservative manifesto together with Camo and Foxy's rhetoric, was enough to convince me an inevitable Tory victory would not produce the hoped-for military dividend a la 79 Maggie landslide. It doesn't make me feel good to be proved right - on the other hand, I was wrong, I do care.
Churchills Ghost
Er, the job of politician became DE requiring only a CV with any combination of: Student's Union, Intern, Research Assistant, SPAD scrawled on it.
Not a person spec your namesake would recognise.
I mean, it's not like anybody on Pprune was sounding a note of caution amongst all the triumphant rhetoric of two years ago. Words to the effect of..."If you think an incoming Tory government is good news for the Armed Forces you gotta be out of your tiny mind".
We're totally screwed whoever takes power, and you know what, I 'm beyond caring. TS 25Apr10
Churchills Ghost
There was a time when political leaders could think straight, what the hell has happened?
Not a person spec your namesake would recognise.
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FB
Pedant hat on.
Germany's P3s came from Holland, who apparently regret their loss. It was the P3 or their diesel Walrus boats for the chop - the P3 lost.
So Holland has no mpa, the Germans binned their Atlantiques and fly ex-Dutch P3s.
Pedant hat off.
Pedant hat on.
Germany's P3s came from Holland, who apparently regret their loss. It was the P3 or their diesel Walrus boats for the chop - the P3 lost.
So Holland has no mpa, the Germans binned their Atlantiques and fly ex-Dutch P3s.
Pedant hat off.
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Chin up FB, apart from the minor fundamental errors, the points raised were valid!
For the record, speaking to the Dutch military, they believe they made the wrong choice regarding boats over aircraft. It's a shame we did not have the opportunity to state this before the government destroyed our own similar capability.
For the record, speaking to the Dutch military, they believe they made the wrong choice regarding boats over aircraft. It's a shame we did not have the opportunity to state this before the government destroyed our own similar capability.
I had a look at one of the ex Cloggie/now German P3Cs at Manching a couple of months ago. Cassidian (EADS) have done a great job on them. Mind you, it's not the first time that the Germans have takne over Dutch assets...
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Thanks to Taxydual for the MoD stats and Grimweasel for confirming the multiplying effect of the UK's domestic defence investments.
Irrespective of whether the UK/US special relationship is over and whether or not we have adequate maritime surveillance, the fact remains that Britain must reboot its defence policy and that this must ultimately result in re-investing in our defence sector (for the reasons already provided).
Where are the Generals who are prepared to lay their balls on the table and educate our politicians regarding what needs to be done. Why don't the Chiefs of Staff march over to Cameron's pad and give him an education in the repercussions of neglecting defence! Is there even a single senior serviceman willing to stand-up and face this challenge!
Irrespective of whether the UK/US special relationship is over and whether or not we have adequate maritime surveillance, the fact remains that Britain must reboot its defence policy and that this must ultimately result in re-investing in our defence sector (for the reasons already provided).
Where are the Generals who are prepared to lay their balls on the table and educate our politicians regarding what needs to be done. Why don't the Chiefs of Staff march over to Cameron's pad and give him an education in the repercussions of neglecting defence! Is there even a single senior serviceman willing to stand-up and face this challenge!
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This is the kind of shameful behaviour which needs to be abated if not completely stopped! Are there none among our senior ranks willing to fight this fight?
Submariners sacked at sea despite MoD promise not to do so
Swathes of sailors on submarines have been sacked at sea despite Ministry of Defence promises that no servicemen would be made redundant.
Senior officers have condemned the MoD as 'cack handed' for sacking the sailors while they were serving at sea - but more action is required
A fifth of submarine medics serving on board Trident nuclear deterrent and hunter killer submarines have been axed, including one who cared for the wounded on the HMS Astute after a crewman went on the rampage.
It is understood that several sailors were told they were losing their jobs while conducting covert operations after their captains received a signal at sea from the Ministry of Defence.
The Navy sacked the personnel despite a previous promise that no-one from the overstretched and undermanned Submarine Service would be among the 5,000 sailors being made redundant.
Senior officers have condemned the MoD as "cack handed" for sacking the sailors while they were serving at sea.
Medical Assistants (Submariners), known as MASMs, play a key role as they have to give both primary and secondary care to personnel on board when the boats are many miles from land. They also provide the main radiation checks and radiological safety on the Navy’s 11 nuclear powered submarines.
Their role is so important that if there are less than two on a Vanguard nuclear deterrent boat it cannot sail. One of the medics sacked among the first tranche of 1,020 sailors axed on Friday was due to board a Vanguard-class boat at high readiness to sail from Faslane in Scotland. Another is in training on a Trafalgar class boat that is about to deploy on sensitive operations for the next three or four months east of the Suez Canal.
One of the medics has served for more than 10 years and was about to be promoted to petty officer, the equivalent of an Army sergeant. Colleagues said the sailor, who has young children, was “completely and utterly devastated”. “The whole point is that they are getting rid of people who in a few years will be vital to keep the service going,” said a Navy source. “If you are short of petty officer medics you simply cannot deploy the submarine. The Navy is shooting itself in the foot by making them redundant.”
The Government ring-fenced those troops in receipt of the operational allowance from redundancy which applies to troops in Afghanistan and over Libya.
But despite having almost 70 per cent of its sailors on operations the Navy has not received this protection.
Submarines are seen as particularly operational as they are either manning the Trident or snooping in foreign waters in an eavesdropping role or on special forces missions.
“We were told that the Submarine Service was protected from cuts but now medics have fallen into the bracket which is absurd,” one submariner told The Daily Telegraph. “Submarine medics are sought after but we a losing almost a quarter of our quota of available medics.”
The medics receive two years intensive training, including NHS placements, and train intensively on dealing with radiological illness and exposure. On special missions a doctor will join them on board.
A Royal Navy spokesman said: "There will be no shortage of medical personnel on our submarines. Redundancies are only being made in surplus areas."
Submariners sacked at sea despite MoD promise - Telegraph
Submariners sacked at sea despite MoD promise not to do so
Swathes of sailors on submarines have been sacked at sea despite Ministry of Defence promises that no servicemen would be made redundant.
Senior officers have condemned the MoD as 'cack handed' for sacking the sailors while they were serving at sea - but more action is required
A fifth of submarine medics serving on board Trident nuclear deterrent and hunter killer submarines have been axed, including one who cared for the wounded on the HMS Astute after a crewman went on the rampage.
It is understood that several sailors were told they were losing their jobs while conducting covert operations after their captains received a signal at sea from the Ministry of Defence.
The Navy sacked the personnel despite a previous promise that no-one from the overstretched and undermanned Submarine Service would be among the 5,000 sailors being made redundant.
Senior officers have condemned the MoD as "cack handed" for sacking the sailors while they were serving at sea.
Medical Assistants (Submariners), known as MASMs, play a key role as they have to give both primary and secondary care to personnel on board when the boats are many miles from land. They also provide the main radiation checks and radiological safety on the Navy’s 11 nuclear powered submarines.
Their role is so important that if there are less than two on a Vanguard nuclear deterrent boat it cannot sail. One of the medics sacked among the first tranche of 1,020 sailors axed on Friday was due to board a Vanguard-class boat at high readiness to sail from Faslane in Scotland. Another is in training on a Trafalgar class boat that is about to deploy on sensitive operations for the next three or four months east of the Suez Canal.
One of the medics has served for more than 10 years and was about to be promoted to petty officer, the equivalent of an Army sergeant. Colleagues said the sailor, who has young children, was “completely and utterly devastated”. “The whole point is that they are getting rid of people who in a few years will be vital to keep the service going,” said a Navy source. “If you are short of petty officer medics you simply cannot deploy the submarine. The Navy is shooting itself in the foot by making them redundant.”
The Government ring-fenced those troops in receipt of the operational allowance from redundancy which applies to troops in Afghanistan and over Libya.
But despite having almost 70 per cent of its sailors on operations the Navy has not received this protection.
Submarines are seen as particularly operational as they are either manning the Trident or snooping in foreign waters in an eavesdropping role or on special forces missions.
“We were told that the Submarine Service was protected from cuts but now medics have fallen into the bracket which is absurd,” one submariner told The Daily Telegraph. “Submarine medics are sought after but we a losing almost a quarter of our quota of available medics.”
The medics receive two years intensive training, including NHS placements, and train intensively on dealing with radiological illness and exposure. On special missions a doctor will join them on board.
A Royal Navy spokesman said: "There will be no shortage of medical personnel on our submarines. Redundancies are only being made in surplus areas."
Submariners sacked at sea despite MoD promise - Telegraph
CG,
Ok, so I'm not in the RN, but I have got a brain and know how to use google, so how about this as an explanation....
Perhaps in the RN medical assistant is not considered a specialist submarine role, since medical assistants serve on surface ships and shore establishments. Prior to being posted to a submarine they undertake specialist courses, in radiation, atmosphere monitoring, etc. However, perhaps even those qualified for submarines are still seen as belonging to a core trade that is RN wide, but is undergoing shrinkage with the RN in general.
Quite possibly a weasel worded statement from MOD, in terms of no submariners being made redundant, but perhaps RN medical assistants knew their branch was in line for reduction - in which case would it have been fair that only those not qualified for submarines would be in the firing line for redundancy.....
Perhaps someone in the RN with more detailed knowledge would care to add some facts to the discussion to replace/supplement my conjecture!
As for being "sacked while at sea".... If it is anything like that RAF then compulsory redundees where given 12 months notice. Hopefully anyone on a sea going post spends a considerable portion of their life at sea, so it is hardly surprising that some people were at sea when the notification came through. One would hope they will not still be at sea in 6 months time.....
Ok, so I'm not in the RN, but I have got a brain and know how to use google, so how about this as an explanation....
Perhaps in the RN medical assistant is not considered a specialist submarine role, since medical assistants serve on surface ships and shore establishments. Prior to being posted to a submarine they undertake specialist courses, in radiation, atmosphere monitoring, etc. However, perhaps even those qualified for submarines are still seen as belonging to a core trade that is RN wide, but is undergoing shrinkage with the RN in general.
Quite possibly a weasel worded statement from MOD, in terms of no submariners being made redundant, but perhaps RN medical assistants knew their branch was in line for reduction - in which case would it have been fair that only those not qualified for submarines would be in the firing line for redundancy.....
Perhaps someone in the RN with more detailed knowledge would care to add some facts to the discussion to replace/supplement my conjecture!
As for being "sacked while at sea".... If it is anything like that RAF then compulsory redundees where given 12 months notice. Hopefully anyone on a sea going post spends a considerable portion of their life at sea, so it is hardly surprising that some people were at sea when the notification came through. One would hope they will not still be at sea in 6 months time.....
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biggus
No matter how they try to 'weazel' their words it is, if true, an utterly despicable way to treat our Armed Forces! 
What next? redundancy notices via r/t to a Merlin crew on Ops in Afghanistan?
This news has finally convinced me that there are utter nuggets running our Armed Forces and that the Chinese must be laughing their flip-flops off !
What next? redundancy notices via r/t to a Merlin crew on Ops in Afghanistan?
This news has finally convinced me that there are utter nuggets running our Armed Forces and that the Chinese must be laughing their flip-flops off !
tramps
My post was conjecture, I don't know if my assessment was true or not. Nobody has yet confirmed/denied it.
I'm not saying that it was/is a good way to treat our armed forces. No doubt a few people on the truckie fleet were away from home when the redundancy notifications came through, as a possible RAF example of a less than ideal scenario.
What was the military supposed to do. Keep at home/gardening leave everyone who was possibly in the bracket for redundancy until the actual names were announced, not send them on courses, routine exercises, etc? That would be an awful lot of people whose life would be on "hold".....
My post was conjecture, I don't know if my assessment was true or not. Nobody has yet confirmed/denied it.
I'm not saying that it was/is a good way to treat our armed forces. No doubt a few people on the truckie fleet were away from home when the redundancy notifications came through, as a possible RAF example of a less than ideal scenario.
What was the military supposed to do. Keep at home/gardening leave everyone who was possibly in the bracket for redundancy until the actual names were announced, not send them on courses, routine exercises, etc? That would be an awful lot of people whose life would be on "hold".....
Perhaps in the RN medical assistant is not considered a specialist submarine role, since medical assistants serve on surface ships and shore establishments. Prior to being posted to a submarine they undertake specialist courses, in radiation, atmosphere monitoring, etc. However, perhaps even those qualified for submarines are still seen as belonging to a core trade that is RN wide, but is undergoing shrinkage with the RN in general.
Its a cack handed way of dealing with people.
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biggus
No doubt! There is always pain when redundancies are in the frame!...But, if there are those of the same trade on shore or serving on surface ships they must come before those who have the advanced training and were confined, on Ops, to a submarine for 6-months.
The morale on that ship must have been scraping all the way along the seabed and with no family to be able to discuss it with.
The morale on that ship must have been scraping all the way along the seabed and with no family to be able to discuss it with
.
