Close formation flying in cloud
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Close formation flying in cloud
I'm a humble GA pilot and have a question for you military chaps and chappesses. Looking up at a very miserable sky today I heard then saw two Tucano aircraft in close formation - wing tips overlapping. I'm guessing there may have been a bit more separation vertically, but it didn't look much (they were not very high, and as they departed I got more of a view from behind rather than from vertically below). The two were scudding along the cloud base, entering then breaking cloud every few seconds.
My question :
How does the following aircraft keep station when in cloud? I've flown through cloud (legally!), but only ever by myself (at least I hope there was no-one close by!), so I have no real idea of levels of visibility of a nearby object. Is it like terrestial fog or is some cloud more 'dense' than other, visually speaking? Or do you guys use strobes for reference? (I didn't notice either of the Tucanoes had them on).
Please excuse me if I'm being dense; just curious.
Cheers, Pom Pom.
PS RIP Red 4. (Was chatting to members of the team and maintenance crew at Exeter a couple of months ago - without exception, true ladies and gentlemen). I salute you all.
My question :
How does the following aircraft keep station when in cloud? I've flown through cloud (legally!), but only ever by myself (at least I hope there was no-one close by!), so I have no real idea of levels of visibility of a nearby object. Is it like terrestial fog or is some cloud more 'dense' than other, visually speaking? Or do you guys use strobes for reference? (I didn't notice either of the Tucanoes had them on).
Please excuse me if I'm being dense; just curious.
Cheers, Pom Pom.
PS RIP Red 4. (Was chatting to members of the team and maintenance crew at Exeter a couple of months ago - without exception, true ladies and gentlemen). I salute you all.
It's just like fog, some thick, some thin - same stuff, of course.
Visibility can vary quite a bit, so sometimes form in cloud is straightforward and other times you're staring intently and seeing bits of the leading aircraft fade in and out of view, hoping it doesn't disappear entirely.
On that note, you have a lost contact procedure which will involve some kind of positive break away (a turn, climb or whatever's appropriate for your position in the formation) and then heading / height separation established so you can operate singly.
The formation flying procedure is the same in that you look at the same cues and do the same things with your hands and feet, but wingmen can easily get a case of 'the leans', particularly if punching in and out of cloud and getting glimpses of the ground in your peripheral vision.
Aircraft with radar / useful air-to-air aids can use that to be close to others in cloud, but I've never been lucky enough to have gadgetry that could do it so I can't comment on the specifics!
Visibility can vary quite a bit, so sometimes form in cloud is straightforward and other times you're staring intently and seeing bits of the leading aircraft fade in and out of view, hoping it doesn't disappear entirely.
On that note, you have a lost contact procedure which will involve some kind of positive break away (a turn, climb or whatever's appropriate for your position in the formation) and then heading / height separation established so you can operate singly.
The formation flying procedure is the same in that you look at the same cues and do the same things with your hands and feet, but wingmen can easily get a case of 'the leans', particularly if punching in and out of cloud and getting glimpses of the ground in your peripheral vision.
Aircraft with radar / useful air-to-air aids can use that to be close to others in cloud, but I've never been lucky enough to have gadgetry that could do it so I can't comment on the specifics!
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Provided the Formation was 3 or 2, the wingmen can drop back & down a little, and close in - this puts more of the lead aircraft closer / easier to see. Useful in 'thicker' cloud. However, I do not recall a "break out" in my time for "cloud too thick" 
NoD
NoD
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Thank you for your responses.
Arm ... : Some things I hadn't thought of. Thanks.
Vigilant Pilot : What does A-Level mean in this context? (They didn't do formation flying in my sixth-form!)
Nigel On Draft : I can see the sense in getting closer (within reason!), but is the exercise trickier with a prop, or not THAT close? - I'm thinking of momentum changes etc.
Edmund Spenser : Wow! I'm guessing the speed range of the Harrier makes it even more challenging, and thrust vectoring (air disturbance)/ back of drag curve?
Arm ... : Some things I hadn't thought of. Thanks.
Vigilant Pilot : What does A-Level mean in this context? (They didn't do formation flying in my sixth-form!)
Nigel On Draft : I can see the sense in getting closer (within reason!), but is the exercise trickier with a prop, or not THAT close? - I'm thinking of momentum changes etc.
Edmund Spenser : Wow! I'm guessing the speed range of the Harrier makes it even more challenging, and thrust vectoring (air disturbance)/ back of drag curve?
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I
...unfortunately, I have, and Arm out The Window's advice is applied.....quickly I might add....following the realisation that the 'imaginary' image you are now looking at and formating on is actually not there...and I may have been 'IN' for a little longer that I should!....
I learned about flying from that.!
do not recall a "break out" in my time for "cloud too thick"
I learned about flying from that.!
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PP - having flown in and out of cloud in formations from 2 to 10 aircraft, including at the top of loops, probably around 98% of the time the cloud is 'thin' enough to see the target aircraft clearly. The problem becomes significant in large formations for the planes further removed from the leader and it is not unusual for some of these to be 'spat out' of the formation (and heated debriefs to take place
).
To sum up, generally not a problem, and NO - strobes not encouraged.
).To sum up, generally not a problem, and NO - strobes not encouraged.
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Kiwi Skyhawks going same way same day in cloud:
Photos: McDonnell Douglas A-4K Skyhawk Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Photos: McDonnell Douglas A-4K Skyhawk Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
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Mmm...
Methinks another aviation piggy bank is required labelled "formation flying course at Ultimate High". Probably have to wait till next year, but will do it.
Still not sure what "A-Level" means - is it military stuff? Doogle no good, so please, give-us-a-clue!
Cheers, PP
Methinks another aviation piggy bank is required labelled "formation flying course at Ultimate High". Probably have to wait till next year, but will do it.
Still not sure what "A-Level" means - is it military stuff? Doogle no good, so please, give-us-a-clue!
Cheers, PP
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Amateurs.
Overtaking another fast jet formation over Central, yes, that's Central London readers, IMC.
If you're going to cock it up, do it properly.
Luckily, nobody clapped wings.
Some people reading this will know/remember.
Overtaking another fast jet formation over Central, yes, that's Central London readers, IMC.
If you're going to cock it up, do it properly.
Luckily, nobody clapped wings.
Some people reading this will know/remember.
A level is an exam metaphor meaning difficult, i.e harder than GCSE or standard procedures; possibly dates back to when standard entry requirement for mil pilots was just O levels.
In cloud, anti-cols off and nav lights to steady (not flash) was usual.
Also quite hard was formating on another aircraft type.
On fast jets, you might have had to do a rapid join from a tactical formation, followed immediately on joining formation by a low level abort into cloud for obstacle clearance. This was guaranteed to cause severe disorientation for the formating pilot(s). An important part of instrument flying training was to desensitise you to this disorientation. You got used to it.
In cloud, anti-cols off and nav lights to steady (not flash) was usual.
Also quite hard was formating on another aircraft type.
On fast jets, you might have had to do a rapid join from a tactical formation, followed immediately on joining formation by a low level abort into cloud for obstacle clearance. This was guaranteed to cause severe disorientation for the formating pilot(s). An important part of instrument flying training was to desensitise you to this disorientation. You got used to it.
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Lima Lima Flight Team 3-Ship ILS Approach
Must be an American, Kiwi or former RAN FAA SOP to keep the anti-col on (daytime) but it could always be extinguished on request. Night is different though.
Must be an American, Kiwi or former RAN FAA SOP to keep the anti-col on (daytime) but it could always be extinguished on request. Night is different though.
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If I was in Vic and the leader landed that far over to the left I'd be having a word in the bar afterwards. Guess their SOP's might be different and No3 dropped back on getting visual below?
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Like you I'm now just a humble GA pilot and during my flying days sat in the "boot". I had to add the caveat to avoid the banter from the pilots on the Forum.
A picture always helps. In the Falklands we intercepted the Tristar as it approached the islands . Some of the cloud down there could be quite thick and this short clip is fairly typical. You can see the differing density as the Tristar drops into the tops. It disappears for a short while but reappears quite quickly. At that point, the lead pilot needs to be predictable and hold a steady heading. A turn towards could be instantly dramatic whereas a turn away would be a guaranteed lost contact. In formation with a like type there were known formation references which made life easier (in the F4 it was trailing light on the wing tip lined up with the blowhole and stab tips squared off). Formating on an unfamiliar type normally meant that the formation position was looser so losing contact was a greater risk.
Like others, it was rare to have to break out but we probably got more nervous in the back than the guys in the front. More than a healthy few seconds of lost contact caused a certain "pucker factor"! In an aircraft fitted with an AI radar it really wasn't worth the risk if the other aircraft disappeared. Turn away, time the diverging heading, turn back and lock up on radar. Once in trail, you could close back in using a visident profile or just stay behind about a mile astern.
A picture always helps. In the Falklands we intercepted the Tristar as it approached the islands . Some of the cloud down there could be quite thick and this short clip is fairly typical. You can see the differing density as the Tristar drops into the tops. It disappears for a short while but reappears quite quickly. At that point, the lead pilot needs to be predictable and hold a steady heading. A turn towards could be instantly dramatic whereas a turn away would be a guaranteed lost contact. In formation with a like type there were known formation references which made life easier (in the F4 it was trailing light on the wing tip lined up with the blowhole and stab tips squared off). Formating on an unfamiliar type normally meant that the formation position was looser so losing contact was a greater risk.
Like others, it was rare to have to break out but we probably got more nervous in the back than the guys in the front. More than a healthy few seconds of lost contact caused a certain "pucker factor"! In an aircraft fitted with an AI radar it really wasn't worth the risk if the other aircraft disappeared. Turn away, time the diverging heading, turn back and lock up on radar. Once in trail, you could close back in using a visident profile or just stay behind about a mile astern.
Lima Lima Flight Team 3-Ship ILS Approach
SpazSinbad, I thought that this thread was discussing close formation, not that gash 'same way same day' loose formation effort those guys were flying?
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Take it up with 'sycamore': "If you try U-TOOB,look for` Lima Lima flight ILS approach`; there also maybe a video on Ppune taken by Ned 2,of the Skyhawks really in the `soup`.." Thanks. I was just providing the Utube link for LimaLima. About 'Ned 2' I have no idea.