Red Arrows Jet Crash
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Patty - Not wishing to question your extensive knowledge of the causes of crashes but one scenario you haven't considered....maybe he tried to eject but the seat failed leaving him an unwitting passenger in the final stages of the flight. 
Do these hawks have flight data recorders fitted?
SW
Do these hawks have flight data recorders fitted?
SW
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MEDIA PLEASE NOTE
This is cearly a tragic air accident, and the amateur and media speculation realy does not help.
Anyone from the media take on board what MOD, Air Investigators say, we simply do know what happened, and they have not stated the pilot concerned was a hero, he could have equally been neglegent, we simply do know know what happened. This 'Hero' thing has been generated by some of the less credible newspapers, but sadly the BBC are following this 'hero' story.
It is somewhat depressing when after almost every air accident the media claimed the pilot steered his aircraft away from housing. MEDIA PLEASE NOTE, its quite simple, in the event of a forced landing a pilot will look for an open area, that's common sense, the outcome is better in an open area, it's as simple as that, in terms of evacuation by parachute or an ejection seat, again if time permits, there will be consideration, as to where the airframe will end up, but sometimes there is little time to decide, that is generally why we dont fly aerobatics (NOT ACROBATIC, GYMNASTICS, STUNT FLYING OR TRICK FLYING OR OTHER MEDIA UNEDUCATED TERMS THE MEDIA USE) over built up areas, because, in the unlikely event of evacuation we dont want the abandoned airframe to hit dwellings.
Finally, Military pilots, and civilian pilots, train for all sorts of emergencies, but in reality when faced with an emergency, every situation is unique, there can be a combination of factors, it's a dynamic situation in real time when you need to do the best you can faced with an emergency, based on your training and flying experience.
Finally. no accident happens in isolation, any air accident always contains a number of factors, an no one factor can be attributed in isolation, and all pilots know, it's often 'all but the grace of god there go I'! Even the very best pilots can be victims of an error chain.
Clearly this Pilot was well qualified and experienced, but Let's leave it to the miltary accident investigators, out of respect to the Pilot's partner and family, rather than speculting.
This is cearly a tragic air accident, and the amateur and media speculation realy does not help.
Anyone from the media take on board what MOD, Air Investigators say, we simply do know what happened, and they have not stated the pilot concerned was a hero, he could have equally been neglegent, we simply do know know what happened. This 'Hero' thing has been generated by some of the less credible newspapers, but sadly the BBC are following this 'hero' story.
It is somewhat depressing when after almost every air accident the media claimed the pilot steered his aircraft away from housing. MEDIA PLEASE NOTE, its quite simple, in the event of a forced landing a pilot will look for an open area, that's common sense, the outcome is better in an open area, it's as simple as that, in terms of evacuation by parachute or an ejection seat, again if time permits, there will be consideration, as to where the airframe will end up, but sometimes there is little time to decide, that is generally why we dont fly aerobatics (NOT ACROBATIC, GYMNASTICS, STUNT FLYING OR TRICK FLYING OR OTHER MEDIA UNEDUCATED TERMS THE MEDIA USE) over built up areas, because, in the unlikely event of evacuation we dont want the abandoned airframe to hit dwellings.
Finally, Military pilots, and civilian pilots, train for all sorts of emergencies, but in reality when faced with an emergency, every situation is unique, there can be a combination of factors, it's a dynamic situation in real time when you need to do the best you can faced with an emergency, based on your training and flying experience.
Finally. no accident happens in isolation, any air accident always contains a number of factors, an no one factor can be attributed in isolation, and all pilots know, it's often 'all but the grace of god there go I'! Even the very best pilots can be victims of an error chain.
Clearly this Pilot was well qualified and experienced, but Let's leave it to the miltary accident investigators, out of respect to the Pilot's partner and family, rather than speculting.
Last edited by athonite; 21st Aug 2011 at 17:21.
I can only add to the previous comment. In my 'incident', 15 Feb 83 (described in the London Gazette 9 May 83), also in a Hawk, the media said I stayed at the controls to avoid an old peoples home. Nothing was further from my mind even if I had been aware of such in the local area.
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Yes and one of the media reports even suggested that the pilot was avoiding fishermen walkers on the river bank, of course we all know (pilots not jounalists) that is absurd!
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just an observation for the video.
he was in a level turn and then it was almost like he stopped the backpressure on the stick...g loc or elevator failure
just observation from the video
he was in a level turn and then it was almost like he stopped the backpressure on the stick...g loc or elevator failure
just observation from the video
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WRT 'zero zero' ejector seats, what about if the aircraft is inverted?
Some reports suggest that the tail was broken off and separated from the fuselage.
Another report (from a reliable source I believe) suggested that no correction appears to have made to the bank from the break:-
From:- http://www.pprune.org/6652362-post51.html
Some reports suggest that the tail was broken off and separated from the fuselage.
Another report (from a reliable source I believe) suggested that no correction appears to have made to the bank from the break:-
he fails to pull out of the bank and lost altitude. I lost him behind the trees at about 50 feet after he made no obvious attitude correction.
Fuel at the end of a display: 180-250 kgs approx depending upon the diversion being used.
Condolences to family, friends and team mates, terribly terribly sad for all.
Guessing at the causes of an accident is speculation, which is happening in every crewroom in the Air Force and it's what aircrew do....but 'naming' of a victim in a public forum, even by formation position, before the MOD statement (allowing time for kin inform) always has been wrong. Full stop.
Repeating unofficial sources on here about possible victim(s), formation position or callsigns is gossip and not professional.....wrong. Full stop.
I have been closely involved in 3 similar situations and had the unfortunate job of meeting and informing a wife of a similar tragedy. Luckily the Stn Cdr and myself were the first people to meet her as she arrived to pick up her husband and give her the very sad news, ( notwithstanding that someone had tipped off the local radio with a name within minutes of the crash) ...In another fatal, formation display incident people did not to banter names around thank goodness, which was extremely important since the groundcrew servicing and flying in the two aircraft involved had swapped their postions and were not in their traditional seats..It could have resulted in a similar position to the midair cock up referred to earlier, which I remember well. If you have ever been close to families who have lost a member you would understand the need for discipline and discretion in these circumstance. I fully support the suggestion that the moderator adopts a cautious approach in similar future circumstances, as an earlier contributor so rightly said, 'Professional' should be our approach to all air matters.
Condolences to family, friends and team mates, terribly terribly sad for all.
Guessing at the causes of an accident is speculation, which is happening in every crewroom in the Air Force and it's what aircrew do....but 'naming' of a victim in a public forum, even by formation position, before the MOD statement (allowing time for kin inform) always has been wrong. Full stop.
Repeating unofficial sources on here about possible victim(s), formation position or callsigns is gossip and not professional.....wrong. Full stop.
I have been closely involved in 3 similar situations and had the unfortunate job of meeting and informing a wife of a similar tragedy. Luckily the Stn Cdr and myself were the first people to meet her as she arrived to pick up her husband and give her the very sad news, ( notwithstanding that someone had tipped off the local radio with a name within minutes of the crash) ...In another fatal, formation display incident people did not to banter names around thank goodness, which was extremely important since the groundcrew servicing and flying in the two aircraft involved had swapped their postions and were not in their traditional seats..It could have resulted in a similar position to the midair cock up referred to earlier, which I remember well. If you have ever been close to families who have lost a member you would understand the need for discipline and discretion in these circumstance. I fully support the suggestion that the moderator adopts a cautious approach in similar future circumstances, as an earlier contributor so rightly said, 'Professional' should be our approach to all air matters.
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In order to save some of you the trouble of going into great detail about how incensed or outraged you are about the level of 'reporting' that goes on here after an accident, especially a high profile one such as this, please remember that for all the posts you see on this thread, there are at least 3-4 times as many that are deleted by the moderators, especially as the news is breaking/unfolding.
The problem we as moderators have is that there is an awful lot to trawl through, starting with the 'must be the first to post this breaking news' types followed by the 'must repeat what has already been posted because I can't be arsed to read what is already on there' types.
What then follows is the speculation, often based on little more than the fact that the poster has some vague connection to aviation, possibly an uncle who is a baggage loader at Wythenshaw Municipal. Then come the 'repeaters' who take some ignorant speculation that has already been reported elsewhere and repeat it here, thus starting a hamster wheel of chinese whispers which get repeated by lazy journos who trawl these threads and publish elsewhere which is then read by the 'repeaters' on here who then re-publish... and so on.
In the first hours of an unfolding event, the moderators are trying to to keep some semblance of order and sensibility. It is not easy because as they are reading and taking action on deleting or moving posts, new posts are being made and by the time they have managed to sort out the mess, a new mess has been created while they were sorting out the original one.
Yesterday, I had to close the site for ten minutes to prevent the flood of posts, the vast majority containing nothing new, whilst the original thread on R&N was merged with the one on the Mil forum and then all the RIP posts were extracted and merged into a new but separate thread. Once that was done, the job became a bit easier to manage but it was only thanks to the spread of mods around the globe due to residence or downroute that we managed to, more or less, keep on top of it all.
What is not needed is some of the more sanctimonious posts from those who think they can control the amount of news, rumour and gossip from doing the rounds. PPRuNe is not 'the media' as some would have you believe. PPRuNe is a rumour network which was designed from the start to take advantage of the new information age we find ourselves in. Whilst anyone can post on here, it is primarily for aviatiors, professionals, both military and civilian, in the main. The big words of warning that used to be at the bottom of every page have been removed by the new owners of this site but as a reminder, they used to warn that posts on here could be made by anyone, especially sciolists, so beware.
Even if we were to close the threads as they appear, it would only be a very short matter of time before someone else posted a new one. This is inevitable as it is human nature to want to know and to speculate.
For those who insist on shutting everything down until the board of inquiry has reported back, how come you are the only ones to decide what can and can't be discussed? Do you refrain from talking about the incident with your friends and family? I very much doubt it. And so, it is the same on here.
As moderators, we will try and keep the flow of information as reasonable as we can. We are not full time employees and we are not professional writers. However, we will attempt to keep the flow of information to reasonable debate and speculation. Many of us are ex-military and are fully aware of the sensitivity of information flow during the early stages of new reports, especially those involving casualties, possibly including friends or acquaintances. What we will not do is pull the plug and try and stop what comes naturally... discussion and speculation. For a few individuals to sanctimoniously demand that we shut all discussion down is both futile and insulting.
What we do as Mods is keep the flow going whilst at the same time delete some of the dross that accompanies the input. Yesterday, I read one article on the Sky website that mentioned a name of one of the Reds who took me up in a Hawk a few years ago and I reciprocated by taking him on the flight on the B744. Thankfully, the speculation was wrong and after a short while the name was removed from the reports. Thankfully, it was not repeated on PPRuNe.
So, whilst I and my fellow mods try and keep the various threads in some sort of order and along the track that the title suggests, we do not need the various 'PPRuNe police' turning this thread into a separate debate about the rights and wrongs of reporting what is read elsewhere. This thread is for debate about what happened and what went wrong. There is a separate thread for those who wish to express their condolences to Flt Lt Jon Eggings' family, friends, colleagues and the rest of the Red Arrows team.
Please don't waste your time telling the rest of us how outraged you are at some of the posts you manage to read on here. You should see some of the stuff we mods have had to read and pull. It outnumbers what is on here by about 4:1.
If you still feel the need to have a debate about the rights and wrongs of the news media frenzy that accompanies these sad and unfortunate incidents then start a new thread. To assist you, I have already posted one here: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post6653806
The problem we as moderators have is that there is an awful lot to trawl through, starting with the 'must be the first to post this breaking news' types followed by the 'must repeat what has already been posted because I can't be arsed to read what is already on there' types.
What then follows is the speculation, often based on little more than the fact that the poster has some vague connection to aviation, possibly an uncle who is a baggage loader at Wythenshaw Municipal. Then come the 'repeaters' who take some ignorant speculation that has already been reported elsewhere and repeat it here, thus starting a hamster wheel of chinese whispers which get repeated by lazy journos who trawl these threads and publish elsewhere which is then read by the 'repeaters' on here who then re-publish... and so on.
In the first hours of an unfolding event, the moderators are trying to to keep some semblance of order and sensibility. It is not easy because as they are reading and taking action on deleting or moving posts, new posts are being made and by the time they have managed to sort out the mess, a new mess has been created while they were sorting out the original one.
Yesterday, I had to close the site for ten minutes to prevent the flood of posts, the vast majority containing nothing new, whilst the original thread on R&N was merged with the one on the Mil forum and then all the RIP posts were extracted and merged into a new but separate thread. Once that was done, the job became a bit easier to manage but it was only thanks to the spread of mods around the globe due to residence or downroute that we managed to, more or less, keep on top of it all.
What is not needed is some of the more sanctimonious posts from those who think they can control the amount of news, rumour and gossip from doing the rounds. PPRuNe is not 'the media' as some would have you believe. PPRuNe is a rumour network which was designed from the start to take advantage of the new information age we find ourselves in. Whilst anyone can post on here, it is primarily for aviatiors, professionals, both military and civilian, in the main. The big words of warning that used to be at the bottom of every page have been removed by the new owners of this site but as a reminder, they used to warn that posts on here could be made by anyone, especially sciolists, so beware.
Even if we were to close the threads as they appear, it would only be a very short matter of time before someone else posted a new one. This is inevitable as it is human nature to want to know and to speculate.
For those who insist on shutting everything down until the board of inquiry has reported back, how come you are the only ones to decide what can and can't be discussed? Do you refrain from talking about the incident with your friends and family? I very much doubt it. And so, it is the same on here.
As moderators, we will try and keep the flow of information as reasonable as we can. We are not full time employees and we are not professional writers. However, we will attempt to keep the flow of information to reasonable debate and speculation. Many of us are ex-military and are fully aware of the sensitivity of information flow during the early stages of new reports, especially those involving casualties, possibly including friends or acquaintances. What we will not do is pull the plug and try and stop what comes naturally... discussion and speculation. For a few individuals to sanctimoniously demand that we shut all discussion down is both futile and insulting.
What we do as Mods is keep the flow going whilst at the same time delete some of the dross that accompanies the input. Yesterday, I read one article on the Sky website that mentioned a name of one of the Reds who took me up in a Hawk a few years ago and I reciprocated by taking him on the flight on the B744. Thankfully, the speculation was wrong and after a short while the name was removed from the reports. Thankfully, it was not repeated on PPRuNe.
So, whilst I and my fellow mods try and keep the various threads in some sort of order and along the track that the title suggests, we do not need the various 'PPRuNe police' turning this thread into a separate debate about the rights and wrongs of reporting what is read elsewhere. This thread is for debate about what happened and what went wrong. There is a separate thread for those who wish to express their condolences to Flt Lt Jon Eggings' family, friends, colleagues and the rest of the Red Arrows team.
Please don't waste your time telling the rest of us how outraged you are at some of the posts you manage to read on here. You should see some of the stuff we mods have had to read and pull. It outnumbers what is on here by about 4:1.
If you still feel the need to have a debate about the rights and wrongs of the news media frenzy that accompanies these sad and unfortunate incidents then start a new thread. To assist you, I have already posted one here: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post6653806
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At this risk of keeping this on topic......Shocking i know.
Are they assigned to the same airframes or is it just get what you're given on the day? Also would it be right to assume that if the seat was found empty (as reported by a witness) an ejection must have occurred (demanded or otherwise)?
Are they assigned to the same airframes or is it just get what you're given on the day? Also would it be right to assume that if the seat was found empty (as reported by a witness) an ejection must have occurred (demanded or otherwise)?
WRT 'zero zero' ejector seats, what about if the aircraft is inverted?
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I assume you are referring to a certain photo taken by a member of the public that appeared on the net yesterday.....?
(much of my working life was analysing failures and, in order to do this I frequently had to consider what ifs - even if they were 'unlikely')
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I caught the incident when I switched on BBC news to get the 5 o'clock news yesterday. I saw the video, and my immediate thoughts were that it did not look good.
I have to give the BBC a pat on the back for that report for not having any idle speculation, or revealling anything they probably did know, until the MOD had officially announced that Flt Lt Egging had been killed.
I didn't watch much TV News after that.
I have to give the BBC a pat on the back for that report for not having any idle speculation, or revealling anything they probably did know, until the MOD had officially announced that Flt Lt Egging had been killed.
I didn't watch much TV News after that.
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Danny, well said, but while this is supposed to be a professional rumour network, it seems like anyone can access it, including people people have no flying experience, I'm not against PPL,s cabin crew, engineers, etc, but is it possible to filter out people without the ability to comment or totaly lacking in any aviation experience?
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I'm sorry but this cannot pass without comment:
"Danny, well said, but while this is supposed to be a professional rumour network, it seems like anyone can access it, including people people have no flying experience, I'm not against PPL,s cabin crew, engineers, etc, but is it possible to filter out people without the ability to comment or totaly lacking in any aviation experience?"
What do you suggest - minimum of 1000 hours on type related to the accident and scanned copies of your logbook ?
And who is the 'etc' Come on, give us a definitive list of those you feel worthy enough to contribute. And your reasons why.
Sorry, but these sort of posts pop up on here from time to time and really get my goat.
"Danny, well said, but while this is supposed to be a professional rumour network, it seems like anyone can access it, including people people have no flying experience, I'm not against PPL,s cabin crew, engineers, etc, but is it possible to filter out people without the ability to comment or totaly lacking in any aviation experience?"
What do you suggest - minimum of 1000 hours on type related to the accident and scanned copies of your logbook ?
And who is the 'etc' Come on, give us a definitive list of those you feel worthy enough to contribute. And your reasons why.
Sorry, but these sort of posts pop up on here from time to time and really get my goat.