Syria starts
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Oh I see. So if you manage to successfully displace a population for more than one generation then they lose all legitimacy to any claims on their previous homeland, right?
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I think it has always worked throughout history, if you want to take over the land you face a potential problem from the inhabitants, usually a violent insurgency. As a result these people are hard to deal with as they hide amongst the general population, and as such there's only two proven ways to deal with them. 1) kill all the population (or at least start to, thereby putting the proverbial fear of god into them). 2) remove that population so they are out of their comfort zone.
You resettle your people, let simmer for a decade of two then the next generation say they have a claim as its there homeland as they where born there. I believe the Chinese are or where importing not insignificant amounts of Han Chinese into that little country, opps ex country called Tibet.
Its not nice but has always seemed to work
You resettle your people, let simmer for a decade of two then the next generation say they have a claim as its there homeland as they where born there. I believe the Chinese are or where importing not insignificant amounts of Han Chinese into that little country, opps ex country called Tibet.
Its not nice but has always seemed to work
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Arab states, Turkey plan 'No-Fly Zone' over Syria
Arab states, Turkey plan 'No-Fly Zone' over Syria
Senior European sources said that Arab jet fighters, and possibly Turkish warplanes, backed by American logistic support will implement a no fly zone in Syria's skies, after the Arab League will issue a decision, under its Charter, calling for the protection of Syrian civilians.
The sources told Kuwait's al Rai daily that the no fly ban will include a ban on the movement of Syrian military vehicles, including tanks, personnel carriers and artillery, adding that this move would aim at curbing the movement of Assad forces, and cripple their ability to bomb cities. The European sources said the no fly ban might lead to the paralysis of the Syrian regime forces "in less than 24 hours."
Meanwhile, it is reported that the leadership of the Turkish General Staff informed all the concerned parties with the Syrian issue its rejection of the idea that the Turkish army would launch any invasion to the Syrian territory including the area adjacent to the Turkish border to establish a "buffer zone" to protect civilians fleeing the violence.
Turkish PM calls on 'coward' Assad to quit
ANKARA — Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan Tuesday urged Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad to step down, branding him a coward and warning that he risked the same fate of dictators who met bloody deaths. In his fiercest criticism yet of his one-time ally, Erdogan also ridiculed Assad for pledging to fight to the death against domestic opponents while being unwilling to risk his life to retake the occupied Golan Heights from Israel. "Quit power before more blood is shed ... for the peace of your people, your region and your country," Erdogan told the Turkish parliament in Ankara.
After weeks of mounting criticism of the Syrian president, it was the first time the Turkish premier had directly called for his removal from power. He is the second leader of a neighbouring country to do so, after Jordan's King Abdullah last week called on Assad to go.
"Bashar al-Assad is saying he will fight to the death. Fighting your own people ... is not heroism but cowardice," Erdogan said, referring to a recent interview with Assad published by the Sunday Times in London. "If you want to see someone who fought and died, take at look at Nazi Germany, take a look at Hitler, take a look at Mussolini and Romania's Ceausescu," he said. Adolf Hitler died in his bunker as Allied forces closed in on Berlin, wartime Italian leader Benito Mussolini was strung up from a lamppost by an angry mob and Romanian communist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu was executed by firing squad on Christmas Day 1989.
If the Syrian leader had failed to learn lessons from history, Erdogan invited him to consider the more recent fate of Libya's late strongman Moamer Kadhafi who was executed by his opponents after being chased from power.
Erdogan also asked Assad why he failed to display the same fighting spirit to win back the Golan Heights, a rocky plateau which Israel captured from Syria during a war in 1967. The Jewish state unilaterally annexed the Golan in 1981. "You are talking about fighting to the death. Why didn't you fight to the death for the Golan Heights occupied by Israel?" said Erdogan...............
Senior European sources said that Arab jet fighters, and possibly Turkish warplanes, backed by American logistic support will implement a no fly zone in Syria's skies, after the Arab League will issue a decision, under its Charter, calling for the protection of Syrian civilians.
The sources told Kuwait's al Rai daily that the no fly ban will include a ban on the movement of Syrian military vehicles, including tanks, personnel carriers and artillery, adding that this move would aim at curbing the movement of Assad forces, and cripple their ability to bomb cities. The European sources said the no fly ban might lead to the paralysis of the Syrian regime forces "in less than 24 hours."
Meanwhile, it is reported that the leadership of the Turkish General Staff informed all the concerned parties with the Syrian issue its rejection of the idea that the Turkish army would launch any invasion to the Syrian territory including the area adjacent to the Turkish border to establish a "buffer zone" to protect civilians fleeing the violence.
Turkish PM calls on 'coward' Assad to quit
ANKARA — Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan Tuesday urged Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad to step down, branding him a coward and warning that he risked the same fate of dictators who met bloody deaths. In his fiercest criticism yet of his one-time ally, Erdogan also ridiculed Assad for pledging to fight to the death against domestic opponents while being unwilling to risk his life to retake the occupied Golan Heights from Israel. "Quit power before more blood is shed ... for the peace of your people, your region and your country," Erdogan told the Turkish parliament in Ankara.
After weeks of mounting criticism of the Syrian president, it was the first time the Turkish premier had directly called for his removal from power. He is the second leader of a neighbouring country to do so, after Jordan's King Abdullah last week called on Assad to go.
"Bashar al-Assad is saying he will fight to the death. Fighting your own people ... is not heroism but cowardice," Erdogan said, referring to a recent interview with Assad published by the Sunday Times in London. "If you want to see someone who fought and died, take at look at Nazi Germany, take a look at Hitler, take a look at Mussolini and Romania's Ceausescu," he said. Adolf Hitler died in his bunker as Allied forces closed in on Berlin, wartime Italian leader Benito Mussolini was strung up from a lamppost by an angry mob and Romanian communist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu was executed by firing squad on Christmas Day 1989.
If the Syrian leader had failed to learn lessons from history, Erdogan invited him to consider the more recent fate of Libya's late strongman Moamer Kadhafi who was executed by his opponents after being chased from power.
Erdogan also asked Assad why he failed to display the same fighting spirit to win back the Golan Heights, a rocky plateau which Israel captured from Syria during a war in 1967. The Jewish state unilaterally annexed the Golan in 1981. "You are talking about fighting to the death. Why didn't you fight to the death for the Golan Heights occupied by Israel?" said Erdogan...............
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Worked in the US in 19th Century.
Worked in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries.
Blatant argument from antiquity and clearly bolleaux
Its not nice but has always seemed to work
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what happens when the refugees from the Arab League "no fly zone" pour into Israel?
And what happens when the Arab aircraft follow them?
I can't see Jordan / Iraq / Turkey / Lebanon letting them in
And what happens when the Arab aircraft follow them?
I can't see Jordan / Iraq / Turkey / Lebanon letting them in
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So we should just let it happen?
So the question is, is it better that "x" amount of people die in "y" amount of time, or a magnitude more spread out over decades? Its a moral question that tugs at the heart, but that is what things come down to. The constant is, if you don't interfere, then in all likely hood your enemys will be, so its all well and good to sit back and say, "its not our business".
what happens when the refugees from the Arab League "no fly zone" pour into Israel?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Torygraph: Syria descends further into open warfare with clashes on Turkish border
Syria descended further into open warfare with armed clashes in the south and on its border with Turkey yesterday, with state media additionally pointing to the involvement of Turkish armed forces.
In one of the most serious clashes to date, the Syrian authorities said they had repelled an incursion by 35 "armed terrorists" over the border in the province of Idlib. They claimed some were wounded, and were ferried away from the battle by Turkish military vehicles to Turkish army aid stations. "The border guards forces suffered no injuries or losses," the state news agency said. "They warned they would stop anyone who even thinks of touching Syria's security or its citizens."
Turkey has provided a base and diplomatic cover to the Free Syrian Army, a growing band of defectors, and it is unlikely that an open attack with such a large group of men could have been planned without their awareness. That alone is enough to draw the two former allies closer to open war, though both are likely to try to avoid it. Ahmet Davutoglu, Turkey's foreign minister, has already admitted he considers that a buffer zone inside Syria for refugees from the fighting might have to be considered, with outside military intervention if necessary.
A widening and increasingly dangerous rift is forming between the main strategic alliances in the region. Iran and its allied militia in Lebanon, Hizbollah, are remaining loyal to Mr Assad but Hamas, another Damascus-based militant group, is making its unease clear.
Hassan Nasrallah, Hizbollah's leader, made his first public appearance in three years, at a rally to mark the Shia Muslim festival of Ashura in Beirut. He said he stood by Mr Assad as a fellow struggler in the "resistance" and said that America, the Satan, was trying to overthrow him to make up for defeat in Iraq. "A message to all those who are conspiring against the resistance and banking on change: we will never let go of our arms," he said. "We are tens of thousands of trained fighters, who are all ready to die." That contains more than a hint that success in what both he and Iran see as a western-backed attempt to undermine Mr Assad could lead to retaliatory attacks, most probably against Hizbollah's stated foe, Israel.
The overthrow of Mr Assad would prove an existential threat to his organisation. Burhan Ghalioun, the leader of the opposition Syrian National Council, has said a new Syria would break ties with Hizbollah and also its strategic alliance with Iran, further isolating it and cutting off its immediate access to the militant group, which it funds and supplies. "The so-called Syrian National Council, formed in Istanbul, and its leader Burhan Ghalioun are trying to present their credentials to the United States and Israel," Mr Nasrallah said.
The United States, meanwhile, said it was returning its ambassador, Robert Ford, to Damascus. France also announced Eric Chevallier, its ambassador would return.
The Free Syrian Army is already engaged in confrontation with regular troops across the country. There has been repeated fighting this week in the town of Dael, near the border with Jordan. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a London-based organisation, said that rebels had been trying to prevent the army entering the town to make arrests.
Syria descended further into open warfare with armed clashes in the south and on its border with Turkey yesterday, with state media additionally pointing to the involvement of Turkish armed forces.
In one of the most serious clashes to date, the Syrian authorities said they had repelled an incursion by 35 "armed terrorists" over the border in the province of Idlib. They claimed some were wounded, and were ferried away from the battle by Turkish military vehicles to Turkish army aid stations. "The border guards forces suffered no injuries or losses," the state news agency said. "They warned they would stop anyone who even thinks of touching Syria's security or its citizens."
Turkey has provided a base and diplomatic cover to the Free Syrian Army, a growing band of defectors, and it is unlikely that an open attack with such a large group of men could have been planned without their awareness. That alone is enough to draw the two former allies closer to open war, though both are likely to try to avoid it. Ahmet Davutoglu, Turkey's foreign minister, has already admitted he considers that a buffer zone inside Syria for refugees from the fighting might have to be considered, with outside military intervention if necessary.
A widening and increasingly dangerous rift is forming between the main strategic alliances in the region. Iran and its allied militia in Lebanon, Hizbollah, are remaining loyal to Mr Assad but Hamas, another Damascus-based militant group, is making its unease clear.
Hassan Nasrallah, Hizbollah's leader, made his first public appearance in three years, at a rally to mark the Shia Muslim festival of Ashura in Beirut. He said he stood by Mr Assad as a fellow struggler in the "resistance" and said that America, the Satan, was trying to overthrow him to make up for defeat in Iraq. "A message to all those who are conspiring against the resistance and banking on change: we will never let go of our arms," he said. "We are tens of thousands of trained fighters, who are all ready to die." That contains more than a hint that success in what both he and Iran see as a western-backed attempt to undermine Mr Assad could lead to retaliatory attacks, most probably against Hizbollah's stated foe, Israel.
The overthrow of Mr Assad would prove an existential threat to his organisation. Burhan Ghalioun, the leader of the opposition Syrian National Council, has said a new Syria would break ties with Hizbollah and also its strategic alliance with Iran, further isolating it and cutting off its immediate access to the militant group, which it funds and supplies. "The so-called Syrian National Council, formed in Istanbul, and its leader Burhan Ghalioun are trying to present their credentials to the United States and Israel," Mr Nasrallah said.
The United States, meanwhile, said it was returning its ambassador, Robert Ford, to Damascus. France also announced Eric Chevallier, its ambassador would return.
The Free Syrian Army is already engaged in confrontation with regular troops across the country. There has been repeated fighting this week in the town of Dael, near the border with Jordan. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a London-based organisation, said that rebels had been trying to prevent the army entering the town to make arrests.
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Any toppled Arab regime doesn't necessarily get replaced by a more democratic one. Each departing party leaves behind a vacuum that will be filled by something. Just not necessarily something better and not necessarily the group(s) that overthrew them. No guarantees in a revolution.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Bloomberg: Russia Says West Planning No-Fly Zone in Syria to Protect Rebels
Russia received information that members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and some Persian Gulf countries are preparing military intervention in Syria, the head of the Russian Security Council said.
Turkey, a NATO member, may play a key role, Nikolai Patrushev, who is also a former director of the Federal Security Service, told Interfax in comments confirmed by his office. The U.S. and Turkey are working on the possibility of creating a no- fly zone to protect Syrian rebels, Patrushev said. “We are receiving information that NATO members and some Persian Gulf states, working under the ‘Libyan scenario’, intend to move from indirect intervention in Syria to direct military intervention,” the Russian security chief said.
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said yesterday that the Arab League monitoring mission in Syria should end after failing to deter the government’s 10-month campaign of violence against dissidents. She spoke after meeting Qatari Foreign Minister, Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim bin Jabor al Thani, a day after President Barack Obama held talks with Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal at the White House.
Russia, which has Soviet-era ties with Syria, argues that the UN-sanctioned bombing of Libya by the NATO was used to bring about regime change and that Western governments are trying to repeat that scenario in Syria. The West is putting pressure on Syria because the country refuses to break off its alliance with Iran rather than for repressing the opposition, said Patrushev, who served with Prime Minister Vladimir Putin in the Soviet-era KGB.
“This time, it won’t be France, the U.K. and Italy that will provide the main strike forces, but perhaps neighboring Turkey, which was until recently on good terms with Syria and is a rival of Iran with immense ambitions,” Patrushev said.
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad rejected calls for his resignation on Jan. 10, accusing “foreign conspiracies” of aiming to divide his country. Unrest in Syria since March 2011 has claimed more than 5,000 lives, according to the United Nations. The Arab League imposed sanctions on Syria on Nov. 27. Russia and China have blocked efforts by the U.S. and the European Union for the UN Security Council to condemn the crackdown.
Russia received information that members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and some Persian Gulf countries are preparing military intervention in Syria, the head of the Russian Security Council said.
Turkey, a NATO member, may play a key role, Nikolai Patrushev, who is also a former director of the Federal Security Service, told Interfax in comments confirmed by his office. The U.S. and Turkey are working on the possibility of creating a no- fly zone to protect Syrian rebels, Patrushev said. “We are receiving information that NATO members and some Persian Gulf states, working under the ‘Libyan scenario’, intend to move from indirect intervention in Syria to direct military intervention,” the Russian security chief said.
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said yesterday that the Arab League monitoring mission in Syria should end after failing to deter the government’s 10-month campaign of violence against dissidents. She spoke after meeting Qatari Foreign Minister, Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim bin Jabor al Thani, a day after President Barack Obama held talks with Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal at the White House.
Russia, which has Soviet-era ties with Syria, argues that the UN-sanctioned bombing of Libya by the NATO was used to bring about regime change and that Western governments are trying to repeat that scenario in Syria. The West is putting pressure on Syria because the country refuses to break off its alliance with Iran rather than for repressing the opposition, said Patrushev, who served with Prime Minister Vladimir Putin in the Soviet-era KGB.
“This time, it won’t be France, the U.K. and Italy that will provide the main strike forces, but perhaps neighboring Turkey, which was until recently on good terms with Syria and is a rival of Iran with immense ambitions,” Patrushev said.
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad rejected calls for his resignation on Jan. 10, accusing “foreign conspiracies” of aiming to divide his country. Unrest in Syria since March 2011 has claimed more than 5,000 lives, according to the United Nations. The Arab League imposed sanctions on Syria on Nov. 27. Russia and China have blocked efforts by the U.S. and the European Union for the UN Security Council to condemn the crackdown.
Thread Starter
Turkey has just stopped allowing the arms shipments going through its territory from Iran to Syria...........playing both sides of the fence yet again.
Course if Turkey allows others in to attack Syria then Kurds have just as much of a right to expect external intervention and weapons for a greater Kurdistan.............this time without Geoffrey Archer.
Course if Turkey allows others in to attack Syria then Kurds have just as much of a right to expect external intervention and weapons for a greater Kurdistan.............this time without Geoffrey Archer.
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Well this is beginning to look a tad ominous. None of this, if it is going the way it currently looks, will end well. The region is badly unstable, with Iraq, Libya, Egypt frankly, a mess. Moving against stronger and larger Arab countries, in the name of civilian protection, is extremely dubious. A combined Iranian/Syrian, Russian and Chinese backed force, teamed up with the other factions might be s bit more than the West can chew. Either our politicians know something the rest of us don't, or we are again being seriously mid led. I suspect the latter
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Sure I agree, but previously what was the end game? We now know, none. Democratic states? We maruad around the globe/region in the name of democracy, apparently. Got to end somewhere.
I don't think we are marauding.I think the intentions are basically good.Possibly with little grasp of cause and effect.
However what would anybody suggest as an alternative long term plan ?
Thats a serious question not a conversational hand grenade
However what would anybody suggest as an alternative long term plan ?
Thats a serious question not a conversational hand grenade
Thread Starter
I don't think we are marauding.I think the intentions are basically good.
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The errors have already occurred. Therefore there possibly is no long term alternate plan. We appear to deal with what we have, again with little appreciation of cause and effect. What goes through our leaders minds?? I have long since given up attempting to understand what drives and motivates. I was totally against the original Iraqi invasion, and like dominoes we fall into a mode of behaviour. The major issue is that we cannot trust our political masters to tell it straight, therefore it is nigh on impossible for the rest of us (thinkers) amongst us to rationalise. We also must never forget that all of this is costing us dearly in miltary and civilian loss if life.