SAR Equipment Question.
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Crab
Switch on lofty - how long is the cord on your liferaft? More than 5M? How low do you have to get? How much risk is there that the dinghy inflates and lifts with your downwash? The grey Lynx fleet doesn't have a particularly sparkling record regarding SAR, does it?
A recognised method for a helicopter to deploy a liferaft is to attach the operating painter(100m) to a strong point on the aircraft, establish the aircraft in a low hover(20-30 ft), kick the liferaft upwind/tide of survivors, climb the a/c until the liferaft inflates and then cut or detach the painter. Each liferaft differs, but some have a floating line that can be 'flown' to the survivors, whilst others have to be guided by either rotorwash or wind and tide.
Switch on lofty - how long is the cord on your liferaft? More than 5M? How low do you have to get? How much risk is there that the dinghy inflates and lifts with your downwash? The grey Lynx fleet doesn't have a particularly sparkling record regarding SAR, does it?
A recognised method for a helicopter to deploy a liferaft is to attach the operating painter(100m) to a strong point on the aircraft, establish the aircraft in a low hover(20-30 ft), kick the liferaft upwind/tide of survivors, climb the a/c until the liferaft inflates and then cut or detach the painter. Each liferaft differs, but some have a floating line that can be 'flown' to the survivors, whilst others have to be guided by either rotorwash or wind and tide.
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I was heavily involved with 84 sqn and I can state cetegorically that the Bell 412 did NOT win the competition - it was not the aircraft selected after the run-off by the HICIPT. They concluded that the best aircraft for the job was the Dauphin - I know - I was there. CBF Cyprus then said, effectively - 'but I want the Griffin'. The decision of the IPT which had taken over a year to reach was then instantly discarded in favour of what the Boss wanted. I went to the meetings - this is fact. There's an ex OC84 knocking around the RAF who can confirm this.
We had a full night overwater rescue ability with the Wessex. True, it was difficult without the height hold and the Radop half way down the stairs, calling radalt heights as he looked at it from under his seat, but we did it. That was why only experienced pilots could go to 84 - it was challenging stuff - poor weather (yes I know, but when it's bad in cyprus, it's bad), and single pilot, and not much of an autopilot.
The Griffin is no Wessex - too small - unmanoeuvreable, and delicate. Wrong aircraft for the job. So was the Dauphin, by the way.
Just don't want people to think the Griffin was the chosen frame - it wasn't.
Do we ever get procurement right? How bloody hard can it be???
We had a full night overwater rescue ability with the Wessex. True, it was difficult without the height hold and the Radop half way down the stairs, calling radalt heights as he looked at it from under his seat, but we did it. That was why only experienced pilots could go to 84 - it was challenging stuff - poor weather (yes I know, but when it's bad in cyprus, it's bad), and single pilot, and not much of an autopilot.
The Griffin is no Wessex - too small - unmanoeuvreable, and delicate. Wrong aircraft for the job. So was the Dauphin, by the way.
Just don't want people to think the Griffin was the chosen frame - it wasn't.
Do we ever get procurement right? How bloody hard can it be???
Last edited by chopabeefer; 24th Aug 2011 at 15:08.
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Well done for highlighting the detail behind the choice of the Griffin, Chopabeefer. It continues to remind us of 2 things... Not enough cash set aside.... You never get near to what the task really needs... And finally, any procurement is liable to be messed around by one or several high-ups.. Be they military or political.... Its the main reason procurements go wrong or certainly arrive late and overbudget. These 2 things are the 2 large elephants in the room during any noteable procurement.
As for the 84 Wessex night capability.. Yes thats true too. Frankly, many of us thought it risky at the time, certainly in a peacetime context, and frankly it would not likely withstand the relevant risk and safety tests now applicable. It was after all a valiant effort to produce a capability on the cheap again. The CAA's view on such a thing these days would be to ask if an alternative is readily available... Short answer.. Coupled AFCS and radar et al as with SK and similar cabs. I have confidence the new MAA would take a similar perpsective.
As for the 84 Wessex night capability.. Yes thats true too. Frankly, many of us thought it risky at the time, certainly in a peacetime context, and frankly it would not likely withstand the relevant risk and safety tests now applicable. It was after all a valiant effort to produce a capability on the cheap again. The CAA's view on such a thing these days would be to ask if an alternative is readily available... Short answer.. Coupled AFCS and radar et al as with SK and similar cabs. I have confidence the new MAA would take a similar perpsective.
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if you cant hover then you are only good for reporting position!
all you can do is throw some raft or lifejackets to the conscious casualities and call in some proper SAR helicopter to do the rest
all you can do is throw some raft or lifejackets to the conscious casualities and call in some proper SAR helicopter to do the rest
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CT - don't rise to the ill informed drivel that Crab is once again spewing out. I'm sure the crew of the Dubai Moon were pleased to see the grey Lynx loom over the horizon who did a bloody good job considering the limitations of the kit and crew - no 4 axis AFCS, normally only 2 up etc, etc, but at least they had plenty of intiative and crew duty hrs!!!
BBC News - Devon-based ship praised for rescuing crew in cyclone
BBC News - Devon-based ship praised for rescuing crew in cyclone
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Who needs a helo?
I have to agree with Tallsar and Crab about the question of needing proper SAR helos and fully qualified SAR crews. It is soooo easy for things to go badly wrong especially at night even when the crew know what they are doing! Anyone for the hi-roof version of the NH90? - It seems to be a possibility but have not heard much feedback from the Fins and Swedes who have taken delivery.
Its worth a thought that having dropped Lindholme gear from a fixed wing to a crew in the water a LONG way north, it still required a Danish Lynx to recover the survivors (those who had not succumbed to hypothermia). ...and why did we ever forget about flying boats after such a great history in the RAF of using these useful beasties. The Japanese haven't and are successfully flying the boats onto Sea 6/7.
Forbid it that the politicians should ever ask the professionals about their job! Such wild thinking...........
Its worth a thought that having dropped Lindholme gear from a fixed wing to a crew in the water a LONG way north, it still required a Danish Lynx to recover the survivors (those who had not succumbed to hypothermia). ...and why did we ever forget about flying boats after such a great history in the RAF of using these useful beasties. The Japanese haven't and are successfully flying the boats onto Sea 6/7.
Forbid it that the politicians should ever ask the professionals about their job! Such wild thinking...........
There used to be 1153 MCU in Cyprus ;equipped with Sea Griffon engines; it might be more practical to borrow the one at the RAFM Hendon; much more fun to cruise around the Med. in..
Bigtop - just think how much easier it would have been if they had actually practised some SAR and had a trained winchop and winchman. Yes they did succeed in rescuing the sailors but they came very close to losing the aircraft and their own crew. And before you start, we had the full story from the 'horses mouth' in a presentation at the SARF conference - they were very lucky to get away with it unscathed.
The attitude that anyone can do SAR and SAR is just a secondary duty is dangerous and may well have caused the loss of the Lynx in the Channel. If you use a helicopter for something it wasn't designed or equipped for flown by a crew who aren't all appropriately trained and qualified in that role then you will have incidents/accidents.
I'm not saying the Dubai Moon rescue shouldn't have been attempted, just that with a properly constituted crew on a grey Lynx, SAR would be safer and more effective. What would have been said had they clipped the boat and lost the aircraft or killed the 'winchman' as they smashed him into the deck. The fact that that didn't happen is mostly down to luck and bravery, not skill and training.
The attitude that anyone can do SAR and SAR is just a secondary duty is dangerous and may well have caused the loss of the Lynx in the Channel. If you use a helicopter for something it wasn't designed or equipped for flown by a crew who aren't all appropriately trained and qualified in that role then you will have incidents/accidents.
I'm not saying the Dubai Moon rescue shouldn't have been attempted, just that with a properly constituted crew on a grey Lynx, SAR would be safer and more effective. What would have been said had they clipped the boat and lost the aircraft or killed the 'winchman' as they smashed him into the deck. The fact that that didn't happen is mostly down to luck and bravery, not skill and training.
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...is mostly down to luck and bravery, not skill and training.
...either way congrats to the crew on their award
....and of course to all the other worthy winners
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In the Lynx world we are often the only asset available due to where we operate in the world, N/S. Atlantic, Counter-Piracy Ops on the Horn of Africa etc. This means that the choice as you show in your post is:
"Do I attempt a SAR with the equipment, personnel and training I have, or do I standby and do nothing?".
Just because SAR is not the primary role of an aircraft it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be conducted by that aircraft. All RN pilots and observers are trained to winch. The observer is the "trained winchop" and the AET the "trained winchman". Yes it would be lovely to have a 4-man crew, 4-axis autopilot, space for a TV cameraman from Highland Emergency and all that good stuff that SK3/6 has but we don't so we crack on with what we've got.
My point about it being a secondary role is that for the Lynx (primary roles Surface Search and Attack, Sub-Surface Attack and Force Protection), is that it is an official secondary role for us. When we train we call it "secondary roles training". Not that it isn't important. Everyone who flies the Lynx realises that flying events like SAR and loadlifting are always "real" compared to more synthetic training such as CASEXs etc.
As regards the tragic HMS Portland crash, the cause was never defined by the AAIB. I remember something along the lines of "crew reacting to an unknown real or perceived emergency" causing them to conduct the "crash checks" (which involves cutting the engines) during a phase of flight when successful autorotation was impossible. As this happened before I joing the Lynx fleet I don't know what the SOP was at the time but I can assure you that we would not now consider winching someone from the sea at night. I would definitely consider launching as a Search asset though as flying around LL over the sea is our bread and butter.
I don't mean to appear arrogant but for me it boils down to the choice I outlined at the top of post. It is up to the Lynx Flight Commander to ensure that his crew is as ready as they can be for all of the roles that we are required to achieve, including SAR.
"Do I attempt a SAR with the equipment, personnel and training I have, or do I standby and do nothing?".
Just because SAR is not the primary role of an aircraft it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be conducted by that aircraft. All RN pilots and observers are trained to winch. The observer is the "trained winchop" and the AET the "trained winchman". Yes it would be lovely to have a 4-man crew, 4-axis autopilot, space for a TV cameraman from Highland Emergency and all that good stuff that SK3/6 has but we don't so we crack on with what we've got.
My point about it being a secondary role is that for the Lynx (primary roles Surface Search and Attack, Sub-Surface Attack and Force Protection), is that it is an official secondary role for us. When we train we call it "secondary roles training". Not that it isn't important. Everyone who flies the Lynx realises that flying events like SAR and loadlifting are always "real" compared to more synthetic training such as CASEXs etc.
As regards the tragic HMS Portland crash, the cause was never defined by the AAIB. I remember something along the lines of "crew reacting to an unknown real or perceived emergency" causing them to conduct the "crash checks" (which involves cutting the engines) during a phase of flight when successful autorotation was impossible. As this happened before I joing the Lynx fleet I don't know what the SOP was at the time but I can assure you that we would not now consider winching someone from the sea at night. I would definitely consider launching as a Search asset though as flying around LL over the sea is our bread and butter.
I don't mean to appear arrogant but for me it boils down to the choice I outlined at the top of post. It is up to the Lynx Flight Commander to ensure that his crew is as ready as they can be for all of the roles that we are required to achieve, including SAR.
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And before all of your hard worked efforts at rescuing anyone it up to them to make sure they don't need rescuing.
As was mentioned earlier about Cap'n Big Balls (I jest) and his landing in the Hudson he did Everything he could - when they interviewed the passengers after they mentioned a lot of them did not know what to do - despite being shown less than an hour earlier. Point being every passenger has a responsibility to watch, learn and remember. Same on a boat, when sailing I have very strict criteria about a lifejacket, most people don't even bother to find where they are kept.
If everyone takes more care and more personal responsibilty then SAR crews can get fat on donuts rather than pullin people off mountains odd out of the oggin.
As to comments made about training and primary or secondary duties - if the choice is a non SAR cab doing it's best with limited resource, some training and a reasonable level of skill or bu**er all - which would you prefer.
I know I'd sleep better if we had the flying Pie oven all the way out to 30 west (IIRC) but we don't.
SAR is not something you do on the cheap, sadly like everything else british at the moment it is cost of everything and value of nothing.
Procurement - a total joke from the get go. Name one project that has come in on time, on budget that did not need a herculean amount of rework by someone fairly low down the chain who actually knew what to do to get the damn piece of kit onto the unit.
Fly, Sail, Walk, or whatever safe this weekend - A busy crew is a bad thing.
Keep up the good work those on SAR - it's nice to know you are there.
As was mentioned earlier about Cap'n Big Balls (I jest) and his landing in the Hudson he did Everything he could - when they interviewed the passengers after they mentioned a lot of them did not know what to do - despite being shown less than an hour earlier. Point being every passenger has a responsibility to watch, learn and remember. Same on a boat, when sailing I have very strict criteria about a lifejacket, most people don't even bother to find where they are kept.
If everyone takes more care and more personal responsibilty then SAR crews can get fat on donuts rather than pullin people off mountains odd out of the oggin.
As to comments made about training and primary or secondary duties - if the choice is a non SAR cab doing it's best with limited resource, some training and a reasonable level of skill or bu**er all - which would you prefer.
I know I'd sleep better if we had the flying Pie oven all the way out to 30 west (IIRC) but we don't.
SAR is not something you do on the cheap, sadly like everything else british at the moment it is cost of everything and value of nothing.
Procurement - a total joke from the get go. Name one project that has come in on time, on budget that did not need a herculean amount of rework by someone fairly low down the chain who actually knew what to do to get the damn piece of kit onto the unit.
Fly, Sail, Walk, or whatever safe this weekend - A busy crew is a bad thing.
Keep up the good work those on SAR - it's nice to know you are there.
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I'm confused by all this.
From back in the days when Lynxes were blue, not grey, and were based at Portland, I can distinctly remember a number of dedicated SAR Lynx painted pale grey / dayglo pink. I can even remember seeing them on SAR exercise (e.g. lifting from the lifeboat, winching off the top of Durdle Dor)..
What happened? Was a skill set lost / diminshed when Portland closed?
From back in the days when Lynxes were blue, not grey, and were based at Portland, I can distinctly remember a number of dedicated SAR Lynx painted pale grey / dayglo pink. I can even remember seeing them on SAR exercise (e.g. lifting from the lifeboat, winching off the top of Durdle Dor)..
What happened? Was a skill set lost / diminshed when Portland closed?
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FAA has never deployed Lynx in a SAR primary role. SK and Wessex are the only types used for FAA SAR the last forty years, and Whirlwind before that.
Possible that you saw a foreign navy's Lynx?
Possible that you saw a foreign navy's Lynx?
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these were RN Lynx from Portland. Saw them on many occasions - thy used to fly along the sea front at Weymouth on a regular basis.
Any chance the powers-that-be at Portland adapted a few locally ? Not part of the "official" SAR scheme. but trained as such nevertheless?
Any chance the powers-that-be at Portland adapted a few locally ? Not part of the "official" SAR scheme. but trained as such nevertheless?
Red On, Green On
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Any chance the powers-that-be at Portland adapted a few locally ? Not part of the "official" SAR scheme. but trained as such nevertheless?
