Extra 7000 MoD civvies to go before 2015.
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Extra 7000 MoD civvies to go before 2015.
Cut & paste fm Yahoo News:
A further 7,000 civilian jobs are to be cut from the Ministry of Defence, it has been reported.
The Guardian said that staff would be sent a letter, signed by the department's permanent secretary Ursula Brennan, explaining the move.
It follows the Strategic Defence and Security Review from last October, which outlined measures to slash thousands of personnel, scrap the Harrier fleet and Nimrod spy planes as well as retiring the HMS Ark Royal aircraft carrier.
Civilian personnel will be cut by 25,000 by 2015 under the MoD plans.
The newspaper carries extracts from the letter, which said: "In the SDSR we planned for ... a 25% reduction in the cost of civilian personnel by 2015, bringing the size of the MoD civil service down to a total of some 60,000 civilian posts.
"As part of the package announced last week we need to make further reductions in ... civilian manpower. For civilians, we will be extending the earlier planned reductions, coming down to a total of 53,000 civilians by 2020."
Media fill-in unrelated to story thus far as it concerns the Army not the civvies:
Defence Secretary Liam Fox said in a Commons statement on July 18 that he ultimately saw there being a total force of around 120,000 with a ratio of around 70% full-time regulars to 30% part-time Territorial Army members.
The current Army is more than 100,000 in size with around 14,000 reservists.
An MoD spokesperson said: "The Government has tackled the £38bn black hole in the MoD's finances, delivering substantial savings through difficult but necessary decisions.
"The aim of these cost savings is to ensure that the maximum funding is available for the front line.
"We hope to achieve these efficiencies through natural wastage wherever possible with compulsory redundancy programmes serving only as a last resort."
I suppose the admin jobs at MoD can be done by whats left of the Navigator cadre once Tornado gets the chop. For it appears to be widespread axe wielding without restructure in support and surely some of the jobs (positions) being lost are actually important ones.
A further 7,000 civilian jobs are to be cut from the Ministry of Defence, it has been reported.
The Guardian said that staff would be sent a letter, signed by the department's permanent secretary Ursula Brennan, explaining the move.
It follows the Strategic Defence and Security Review from last October, which outlined measures to slash thousands of personnel, scrap the Harrier fleet and Nimrod spy planes as well as retiring the HMS Ark Royal aircraft carrier.
Civilian personnel will be cut by 25,000 by 2015 under the MoD plans.
The newspaper carries extracts from the letter, which said: "In the SDSR we planned for ... a 25% reduction in the cost of civilian personnel by 2015, bringing the size of the MoD civil service down to a total of some 60,000 civilian posts.
"As part of the package announced last week we need to make further reductions in ... civilian manpower. For civilians, we will be extending the earlier planned reductions, coming down to a total of 53,000 civilians by 2020."
Media fill-in unrelated to story thus far as it concerns the Army not the civvies:
Defence Secretary Liam Fox said in a Commons statement on July 18 that he ultimately saw there being a total force of around 120,000 with a ratio of around 70% full-time regulars to 30% part-time Territorial Army members.
The current Army is more than 100,000 in size with around 14,000 reservists.
An MoD spokesperson said: "The Government has tackled the £38bn black hole in the MoD's finances, delivering substantial savings through difficult but necessary decisions.
"The aim of these cost savings is to ensure that the maximum funding is available for the front line.
"We hope to achieve these efficiencies through natural wastage wherever possible with compulsory redundancy programmes serving only as a last resort."
I suppose the admin jobs at MoD can be done by whats left of the Navigator cadre once Tornado gets the chop. For it appears to be widespread axe wielding without restructure in support and surely some of the jobs (positions) being lost are actually important ones.
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I blame the fact that a lot of them were civilianised in the first place back in the 1990's.... Granted though, there are going to be numbers amongst them that were always civ rather than posts held by mil personnel, but I dont recall a great level of squawking, particularly from the unions, when military posts were made redundant following the end of the cold war, the closure of military hospitals, etc etc etc.
Note, I'm not denigrating the work done by civilians in MOD, I know from my own experiences that a lot of people work damn hard and have the mil's best interests at heart.
It just strikes me that we've quite possibly come full circle since the 1990's. Its just that this time, its Treasury led and if any of the roles are to stay at all, chances are they'll continue to be outsourced to the usual suspects.
Kinda get the feeling that we'd have been better off leaving things the way they were in the 1990's instead of pursuing this failed experiment... It just seems nothing is being learned, just lurching from one crisis to another...
Note, I'm not denigrating the work done by civilians in MOD, I know from my own experiences that a lot of people work damn hard and have the mil's best interests at heart.
It just strikes me that we've quite possibly come full circle since the 1990's. Its just that this time, its Treasury led and if any of the roles are to stay at all, chances are they'll continue to be outsourced to the usual suspects.
Kinda get the feeling that we'd have been better off leaving things the way they were in the 1990's instead of pursuing this failed experiment... It just seems nothing is being learned, just lurching from one crisis to another...
I expect Jimlad1 will be along shortly to add some perspective to this.
However, in the meantime, one point being missed throughout all this headcount reduction malarkey is that a significant number of the civvy posts are not about delivering the capability. They are, in management-speak, about delivering compliance with the huge amount of intrusive box-ticking legislation that has mushroomed over the last fifteen years.
Equality & Diversity?
Environmental compliance and energy-saving?
Investing in People (ho f8cking-ho)?
Data protection?
Anybody think these functions are going to get canned to "bear down further on non-front line costs"?
Didn't think so.....Much easier to blame equipment overspend and profligacy.
However, in the meantime, one point being missed throughout all this headcount reduction malarkey is that a significant number of the civvy posts are not about delivering the capability. They are, in management-speak, about delivering compliance with the huge amount of intrusive box-ticking legislation that has mushroomed over the last fifteen years.
Equality & Diversity?
Environmental compliance and energy-saving?
Investing in People (ho f8cking-ho)?
Data protection?
Anybody think these functions are going to get canned to "bear down further on non-front line costs"?
Didn't think so.....Much easier to blame equipment overspend and profligacy.
Someone rang for me?
I think the extra cuts are inevitable as we downsize through closure of Germany (we have nearly 10,000 locally employed civil servants overseas still) and move smaller estates into larger sites.
The problem isn't so much the loss of 'non jobs', which while perhaps not as prevalent as Not a boffin suggests, are still there. The problem is the growing loss of the final 'cold war era' types, many of whom have decades of experience and are approaching retirement age. They will take a lot of experience and memory with them (most notably where the bodies, files and expenses claims are buried) and we won't be replacing them.
Expect to see mass gapping across the piste as the loss of 33% of the CS manpower kicks in, resulting in more work for the forces, more gash duties and making life that little bit less fun. People always forget that much of the work thats done won't go away, just because you downsize the CS...
I think the extra cuts are inevitable as we downsize through closure of Germany (we have nearly 10,000 locally employed civil servants overseas still) and move smaller estates into larger sites.
The problem isn't so much the loss of 'non jobs', which while perhaps not as prevalent as Not a boffin suggests, are still there. The problem is the growing loss of the final 'cold war era' types, many of whom have decades of experience and are approaching retirement age. They will take a lot of experience and memory with them (most notably where the bodies, files and expenses claims are buried) and we won't be replacing them.
Expect to see mass gapping across the piste as the loss of 33% of the CS manpower kicks in, resulting in more work for the forces, more gash duties and making life that little bit less fun. People always forget that much of the work thats done won't go away, just because you downsize the CS...
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It'll be interesting. Anyone who thinks the Forces can take up the slack is sadly misguided. The Forces were pared down to the bone years ago.
MOD always was a supertanker. I struggled to get any requirement through the system even though I knew we needed it and it was funded. And that was pre-politically correct Nu Labour. That meant longer time into service, higher cost and in-built obsolescence.
If I was King for the day, I'd sit everyone at their desk and see how long it was until their output was requested. If the call didn't come inside 3 months - redundancy! It might even persuade the heirarchy to move projects through on time.
MOD always was a supertanker. I struggled to get any requirement through the system even though I knew we needed it and it was funded. And that was pre-politically correct Nu Labour. That meant longer time into service, higher cost and in-built obsolescence.
If I was King for the day, I'd sit everyone at their desk and see how long it was until their output was requested. If the call didn't come inside 3 months - redundancy! It might even persuade the heirarchy to move projects through on time.
Admittedly second hand, but I hear at least two Ministers were poking around some months ago after being asked how many staff in MoD met the grade description minima. For each grade, the answer was very few.
Pretty close to what Jimlad1 said. Front line will suffer because for years there has been no attempt to replace the experience.
Pretty close to what Jimlad1 said. Front line will suffer because for years there has been no attempt to replace the experience.
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When I joined MOD CS in 1988 there were 4 defence ministers, now there are 6. Perhaps ministers should be looking closer to home when searching out inefficiencies and overmanning...
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As a 20 yr plus military guy, I wish to input. I have worked with myriad Civil Servants over the years... some were brilliant, many (more than 50% IRRC) were imbecilies - proper morons - as thick as mince, and getting paid for work they were not capable of doing. I have worked for many Sqn Bosses - all Wg Cdr rank. Some were excellent, and others were morons - clearly been promoted to get them out of a cockpit.
Point? The Civil service have more than their fair share of incompetant imbeciles - think anyone in the forces can agree to that - but there are exceptions - a few of the civvies are excellent and deserve praise - but they are in the minority.
In a time of cuts, we must go for the best and most efficient option - best for the forces, most efficient for the gov't and the taxpayer. That means all posts 100% mil. Civvy's don't fight, carry weapons, hold NBC quals, or have fitness certifcates.
The gov't need to grow up and live in the 'now'. You want a strong MoD (Think about what those letters mean!!!). You need fit, healthy, and motivated military personel, carrying weapons and willing to use them. There is no other option.
Getting rid of civil servants is long overdue, we do not need them, and we never needed them. They were pseudo Mil admin staff (who could not carry weapons) at best. Sorry. But goodbye. The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of thee few.
Contentious? Certainly, but right. The MOD is about defending, fighting, killing (yes, sorry - we do that), and cleaning up the damage. I have been in all situations and have never seen a civvy who did not arrive in any post with a load of rules to hinder the whole process. They were, for the most part, clueles
Sorry, but goodbye. You won't be missed. Want your job back? Pick up a weapon, go throught mil training, and fight. What's that?....bad back is it...oh dear..
Point? The Civil service have more than their fair share of incompetant imbeciles - think anyone in the forces can agree to that - but there are exceptions - a few of the civvies are excellent and deserve praise - but they are in the minority.
In a time of cuts, we must go for the best and most efficient option - best for the forces, most efficient for the gov't and the taxpayer. That means all posts 100% mil. Civvy's don't fight, carry weapons, hold NBC quals, or have fitness certifcates.
The gov't need to grow up and live in the 'now'. You want a strong MoD (Think about what those letters mean!!!). You need fit, healthy, and motivated military personel, carrying weapons and willing to use them. There is no other option.
Getting rid of civil servants is long overdue, we do not need them, and we never needed them. They were pseudo Mil admin staff (who could not carry weapons) at best. Sorry. But goodbye. The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of thee few.
Contentious? Certainly, but right. The MOD is about defending, fighting, killing (yes, sorry - we do that), and cleaning up the damage. I have been in all situations and have never seen a civvy who did not arrive in any post with a load of rules to hinder the whole process. They were, for the most part, clueles
Sorry, but goodbye. You won't be missed. Want your job back? Pick up a weapon, go throught mil training, and fight. What's that?....bad back is it...oh dear..
"In a time of cuts, we must go for the best and most efficient option - best for the forces, most efficient for the gov't and the taxpayer. That means all posts 100% mil. Civvy's don't fight, carry weapons, hold NBC quals, or have fitness certifcates."
Why is getting rid of the CS the most cost effective option to the taxpayer? CS wage bill is approx £3Bn per year, the armed forces wage bill is approx £8 Bn per year. 60% of the CS earn under £26K per year - in the armed forces any at the rank of Cpl or above earns that. CS also do not attract any form of allowances or myriad of other benefits like cheap housing, subsidised gyms etc.
More to the point much of the work of the CS is either very admin like in nature, so it does seem a little pointless to employ legions of forces personnel to do a job that could be done by a civvy for a third of the price (my old Cpl in London was living in a Canary Wharf flat, with a free travel card and return trips home every week - doing the same job that an E2 civil servant could have done for £14K per year with no perks and same hours).
As for the work - given that many CS are rocket scientists etc, where do you propose to get the brains trust from to deliver overnight the deep expertise needed to keep places like DIS or DSTL running? Or do you think it makes sense to recruit thousands of extra military teachers and security guards and canteen assistants, dockyard workers, crane operators etc.
The total bill to the UK for replacing the MOD CS with Mil would add several billion per year in order to put Mil into jobs which are being done well by trained civilians for half - third of the price. In what way is this value for money?
Personally I think the whole 'whinging civvies are idle, jobsworth useless' argument is about as relevant and interesting as 'mil are overpaid, useless, arrogant, primadonnas'. Both Mil and Civ play a vital role in defence - some of us do very pointy exciting stuff, others do very dull and thankless tasks - however, it all works together as one team, and trying to make out that civvies are unterrmensch for daring not to wear uniform or a flying suit is divisive, and in my opinion not something that does the Military any credit.
Why is getting rid of the CS the most cost effective option to the taxpayer? CS wage bill is approx £3Bn per year, the armed forces wage bill is approx £8 Bn per year. 60% of the CS earn under £26K per year - in the armed forces any at the rank of Cpl or above earns that. CS also do not attract any form of allowances or myriad of other benefits like cheap housing, subsidised gyms etc.
More to the point much of the work of the CS is either very admin like in nature, so it does seem a little pointless to employ legions of forces personnel to do a job that could be done by a civvy for a third of the price (my old Cpl in London was living in a Canary Wharf flat, with a free travel card and return trips home every week - doing the same job that an E2 civil servant could have done for £14K per year with no perks and same hours).
As for the work - given that many CS are rocket scientists etc, where do you propose to get the brains trust from to deliver overnight the deep expertise needed to keep places like DIS or DSTL running? Or do you think it makes sense to recruit thousands of extra military teachers and security guards and canteen assistants, dockyard workers, crane operators etc.
The total bill to the UK for replacing the MOD CS with Mil would add several billion per year in order to put Mil into jobs which are being done well by trained civilians for half - third of the price. In what way is this value for money?
Personally I think the whole 'whinging civvies are idle, jobsworth useless' argument is about as relevant and interesting as 'mil are overpaid, useless, arrogant, primadonnas'. Both Mil and Civ play a vital role in defence - some of us do very pointy exciting stuff, others do very dull and thankless tasks - however, it all works together as one team, and trying to make out that civvies are unterrmensch for daring not to wear uniform or a flying suit is divisive, and in my opinion not something that does the Military any credit.
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Personally I think the whole 'whinging civvies are idle, jobsworth useless' argument is about as relevant and interesting as 'mil are overpaid, useless, arrogant, primadonnas'. Both Mil and Civ play a vital role in defence - some of us do very pointy exciting stuff, others do very dull and thankless tasks - however, it all works together as one team, and trying to make out that civvies are unterrmensch for daring not to wear uniform or a flying suit is divisive, and in my opinion not something that does the Military any credit.
All the bean counting in the world doesn't help much when you need bayonets on the ground/jets above/subs below. We want to keep the people who do fightin' and bashin', and chop the people who don't.
"All the bean counting in the world doesn't help much when you need bayonets on the ground/jets above/subs below. We want to keep the people who do fightin' and bashin', and chop the people who don't"
Totally agree with you = the problem is what happens when you pull the people that aren't uber pointy sharp end and things start going wrong? The public have an image, which the media does nothing to dispell, that somehow the front line and the MOD are totally divorced from each other. In reality, if you ditch the MOD CS, and wider forces support elements, then very quickly you'd start seeing the inexorable collapse of the ability of the front line to do stuff.
Totally agree with you = the problem is what happens when you pull the people that aren't uber pointy sharp end and things start going wrong? The public have an image, which the media does nothing to dispell, that somehow the front line and the MOD are totally divorced from each other. In reality, if you ditch the MOD CS, and wider forces support elements, then very quickly you'd start seeing the inexorable collapse of the ability of the front line to do stuff.
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We are facing the same arguement between police officers / support staff. Get rid of the "useless" support staff and the officers can do their job. Very true but a PC on £32k doing the same job as a support staff on £15K. Yes more officers would needed (consquently a bigger wage bill) but not more officers on the street doing the job that the public want.
The same would be true with the military. So you get more military admin clerks, chefs, drivers but that still does not give you more front line soliders to do the fighting does it.
The same would be true with the military. So you get more military admin clerks, chefs, drivers but that still does not give you more front line soliders to do the fighting does it.
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Extra Civys lost
"The gov't need to grow up and live in the 'now'. You want a strong MoD (Think about what those letters mean!!!). You need fit, healthy, and motivated military personel, carrying weapons and willing to use them. There is no other option.
Getting rid of civil servants is long overdue, we do not need them, and we never needed them. They were pseudo Mil admin staff (who could not carry weapons) at best. Sorry. But goodbye. The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of thee few."
Chopbeefer you are wrong!
I am ex military and now a CS. Fact, there is waste in the MoD CS! but I seriously doubt it equates to 33,000 posts. These cuts will impact on operations & support to the front line.
If the MoD CS has no value and you dont need them I hope you dont expect to:
-be fed and watered
-receive any pay / allowances
-have your accommodation concerns investigated
-be supplied with uniform / equipment
-have individuals working on designs for the latest high technology equipment
-be able to have complaints investigated outside the chain of command on Ministers behalf
-be able to return home from deployment in an emergency .
-have your family /dependants supported whilst you are deployed / or if taken ill or if you should die in service.
- receive a pension / medals
Just some of the valuable rolls MoD CS perform
The majority of civilians earn their salary and offer better value for money that their military equivalent performing similar roles. (I should know having seen both sides) The Govt actually needs to look at civilianising more support roles - replacing military personnel in non front line tasks and freeing them up for front line / Op duties. As such their is a strong case for increasing, or at least not cutting the MoD CS - redeploying those CS in non jobs to essential tasks.
Getting rid of civil servants is long overdue, we do not need them, and we never needed them. They were pseudo Mil admin staff (who could not carry weapons) at best. Sorry. But goodbye. The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of thee few."
Chopbeefer you are wrong!
I am ex military and now a CS. Fact, there is waste in the MoD CS! but I seriously doubt it equates to 33,000 posts. These cuts will impact on operations & support to the front line.
If the MoD CS has no value and you dont need them I hope you dont expect to:
-be fed and watered
-receive any pay / allowances
-have your accommodation concerns investigated
-be supplied with uniform / equipment
-have individuals working on designs for the latest high technology equipment
-be able to have complaints investigated outside the chain of command on Ministers behalf
-be able to return home from deployment in an emergency .
-have your family /dependants supported whilst you are deployed / or if taken ill or if you should die in service.
- receive a pension / medals
Just some of the valuable rolls MoD CS perform
The majority of civilians earn their salary and offer better value for money that their military equivalent performing similar roles. (I should know having seen both sides) The Govt actually needs to look at civilianising more support roles - replacing military personnel in non front line tasks and freeing them up for front line / Op duties. As such their is a strong case for increasing, or at least not cutting the MoD CS - redeploying those CS in non jobs to essential tasks.
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You don't need to get rid of every member of the CS who works with MoD. Many are doing valuable jobs which need to be done even when the military have picked up arms and gone off to perform their primary role.
You DO need to not be shy about getting rid of those who are "imbecilies - proper morons - as thick as mince, and getting paid for work they were not capable of doing."
You DO need to ensure that the Terms of Reference for CS are compatible with the environment in which they will be working and the military personnel they will be working with and for.
There is plenty of scope for reducing the size of the civil service without working those remaining until they drop.
You DO need to not be shy about getting rid of those who are "imbecilies - proper morons - as thick as mince, and getting paid for work they were not capable of doing."
You DO need to ensure that the Terms of Reference for CS are compatible with the environment in which they will be working and the military personnel they will be working with and for.
There is plenty of scope for reducing the size of the civil service without working those remaining until they drop.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Jimlad referred to the cooks and bottle washers in Germany. They can only be removed from the CS if the unit that they serve is disbanded. If that unit is relocated to Jockland then they will need to recruit more cooks and bottlewashers.
Other CS are needed irrespective of the cuts to the teeth. The man that pays the MOD electric bill for instance will be needed until after the last man has left.
Now I would like to propose removal of the Defence Training Estates - a self-licking lollipop if ever there was one. C Northcote Parkinson observed that the Krupps works main offices in the Rhur was working flat out when Krupps production was zero as a result of allied bombing. He determined that an organisation of a given size would be administratively self-sustaining.
One moan a few years ago was that the we found out what was going on by reading the Daily Express. Now we have shedloads of high cost glossy magazines, mission statements, etc etc. When DTE began we had to write a pamphlet about each facility when we had managed perfectly well for 60 years with order books. The pamphlets were duly written and published but no one accepted ownership and they soon became out of date.
Other CS are needed irrespective of the cuts to the teeth. The man that pays the MOD electric bill for instance will be needed until after the last man has left.
Now I would like to propose removal of the Defence Training Estates - a self-licking lollipop if ever there was one. C Northcote Parkinson observed that the Krupps works main offices in the Rhur was working flat out when Krupps production was zero as a result of allied bombing. He determined that an organisation of a given size would be administratively self-sustaining.
One moan a few years ago was that the we found out what was going on by reading the Daily Express. Now we have shedloads of high cost glossy magazines, mission statements, etc etc. When DTE began we had to write a pamphlet about each facility when we had managed perfectly well for 60 years with order books. The pamphlets were duly written and published but no one accepted ownership and they soon became out of date.
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The RN needs to bin Flagship as a matter of urgency. populated by failed trainees and ex WO's who created a niche and slipped into it after their 22 came up. A couple of bases in Pompey with ex WO's on 23k just for manning block offices and checking for TV licences etc....Whilst wearing pastel coloured shirts and "slacks". Must be a Burtons grant in there also.
edit>
And while I'm at it: The HMS Collingwood ten percenters. The disabled section who were taken on to tick boxes and maintain quota requirements. Some of the most incompetent, obnoxious chip-on-their-shoulder types I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. And no..I'm not having a pop at the disabled - just the one legged imbeciles that class their disablity and subsequent bulletproofness as a license to talk to people like ****, despite their incompetences.
edit>
And while I'm at it: The HMS Collingwood ten percenters. The disabled section who were taken on to tick boxes and maintain quota requirements. Some of the most incompetent, obnoxious chip-on-their-shoulder types I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. And no..I'm not having a pop at the disabled - just the one legged imbeciles that class their disablity and subsequent bulletproofness as a license to talk to people like ****, despite their incompetences.
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Topsy Turvey.
Thank you very much for your post. You have proved my point for me. All of the functions that you mention are vital.
All are essential.
All can be done by mil personnel with minimal training. They will do everything the CS do. In addition they can fight, deploy, provide Mil Aid to Civ Community etc. CS are 1/2 a mil man. At best. When terrosrists break through the gate and are charging up the stairs, which of your office managers will be cowering under desks, and which will be reaching for the L85 and slamming home a magazine.
It is called the ministry of defence. Not the ministry of Administration.
The mil can do the CS's job. The CS cannot do the Mil's job.
You may find this unpalatable. But it does not make it any less true.
Thank you very much for your post. You have proved my point for me. All of the functions that you mention are vital.
All are essential.
All can be done by mil personnel with minimal training. They will do everything the CS do. In addition they can fight, deploy, provide Mil Aid to Civ Community etc. CS are 1/2 a mil man. At best. When terrosrists break through the gate and are charging up the stairs, which of your office managers will be cowering under desks, and which will be reaching for the L85 and slamming home a magazine.
It is called the ministry of defence. Not the ministry of Administration.
The mil can do the CS's job. The CS cannot do the Mil's job.
You may find this unpalatable. But it does not make it any less true.
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Agreed. There is nothing worse that a "right to a living" mentality coupled with an artificial perception of "rank".
In my (RN) experience, most CS classified themselves according to their equivalent, or perceived equivalent ranks. Not according to output or ability.
I'd bin the lot of them and stream a tier 3 basic trainee section into their roles. There's an ex WO on 23k doing block office jobs at Collingwood that I did as a JSO2.
Can't blame them for seeing the niche and taking advantage but - they've had a good innings.
In my (RN) experience, most CS classified themselves according to their equivalent, or perceived equivalent ranks. Not according to output or ability.
I'd bin the lot of them and stream a tier 3 basic trainee section into their roles. There's an ex WO on 23k doing block office jobs at Collingwood that I did as a JSO2.
Can't blame them for seeing the niche and taking advantage but - they've had a good innings.