P51 and Skyraider Collision at Legends 10 Jul 11
Originally Posted by fallmonk
Out off curiosity how much would the P51 be worth ?
There's two for sale currently in the USA, one is US$1.3m and the other US$1.8m.
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I also have displayed at Duxford and have been alarmed on a number of occasions in the pre display work ups, cowboys seemed an apt discription at times. Why is it necessary to formate, aerobat and stress these old aircraft? The P38 crash was a classic example of what not to do, consequently we have no P38, no Mossie and a few others. Duxford accidents are fortunately rare but they do happen and will continue to happen with unfortunate loss of aircraft and possibly lives, the safest course would be to put away the quasi military displays and just fly the things straight and level.
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Why is it necessary to formate, aerobat and stress these old aircraft?
Many of these old aircraft are in better condition now than when they first rolled off the assembly lines 70 years ago.
If it wasn't for the 'industry' behind restoring these "old aircraft" most of them would still be sitting on a steel pole and we would have a handful of Spitfires still flying, rather than the 45 worldwide (as of May 2011).
There were 164 airworthy P-51s around the world, sadly one less for now but the industry can work miracles these days.
The sad loss of the B-17 "Liberty Belle" in Ohio a couple of weeks ago, happened on a straight forward flight from A to B after a fire caught hold after takeoff.
Would your ideal world have all of these "old aircraft" gathering dust in museums or hangars never seeing the light of day?
The P38 crash was a classic example of what not to do, consequently we have no P38...
The closing part of the AAIB report stated -
It is known that the pilot was a very experienced display pilot and produced high quality, aesthetically pleasing displays. There is no evidence to explain why the aircraft entered the second part of the final manoeuvre in a less than optimum pitch attitude which developed into a significant downward trajectory. The possibility of a temporary restriction to the flying controls (especially the roll control), or some other form of distraction of the pilot, could not be dismissed.
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GeeRam
Your post got me thinking about insurance. Are the ac themselves covered, or would there be just 3rd Party and Public Liability cover?
So if "A" dinks "B" and "B" crashes, does "A" have to pay out for the loss of "B"?
What would be the situation with an HMG-owned/operated ac? Would the MoD or Crown cough up?
MB
So if "A" dinks "B" and "B" crashes, does "A" have to pay out for the loss of "B"?
What would be the situation with an HMG-owned/operated ac? Would the MoD or Crown cough up?
MB
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"Would your ideal world have all of these "old aircraft" gathering dust in museums or hangars never seeing the light of day?"
maybe when you get down to say 10 specimens the answer has to be yes......
maybe when you get down to say 10 specimens the answer has to be yes......
The first sentence from the first ground brief of my first formation lesson (civilian warbird form course using the FAST program). The instructor was X Canadian Forces QFI and X Snowbird display pilot.
The first rule of formation flying: It is your responsibity not to hit lead............
The first rule of formation flying: It is your responsibity not to hit lead............
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My main concern was the delay in the Emergency Services being Scrambled to the crash site....
I watched in horror as the incident unfolded but when there was no movement of the Rescue Vehicles following the crash of the P51, and for some considerable time, I was close to calling 999 on my mobile and raising the alarm myself. I didn't in the end as another gentleman standing next to me had already done so stating 'Don't the Duxford Crash Crews attend aircraft crashes anymore? Is that another health and safety restriction?'
I am glad that there were no serious injuries but disgusted at the response times by the Crash Crews... And for the second time that afternoon!! (Triplane Incident!)
I watched in horror as the incident unfolded but when there was no movement of the Rescue Vehicles following the crash of the P51, and for some considerable time, I was close to calling 999 on my mobile and raising the alarm myself. I didn't in the end as another gentleman standing next to me had already done so stating 'Don't the Duxford Crash Crews attend aircraft crashes anymore? Is that another health and safety restriction?'
I am glad that there were no serious injuries but disgusted at the response times by the Crash Crews... And for the second time that afternoon!! (Triplane Incident!)
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All I can say is that at the motorway end, I missed the accident, and was suddenly aware that all four fire engines and an ambulance at that fire point had started up, blue lights etc., and gone haring down the taxi-way at high speed. I think that, for the purposes of accidents/incidents, that the airfield and it's surroundings are divided into sectors, and an accident in a certain sector is the resposibility of the fire crews nearest to that sector, together with back up from others if need be. I have been attending shows at Duxford for many years, and have witnessed several accidents/incidents, and the response of fire crews has always been instant. [Unlike Oshkosh, in the States where response has always been dire compared to the U.K.]
With respect to one of the posters, I was unfortunate enough to witness a crash at Mildenhall, on the airfield, and on the news on ITV that evening, a witness complained that it had taken the first emergency vehicle six minutes to reach the scene. I replayed my video, and timed it , and it turned out to be 1minute 30 secs. In instances like this, time does seem to stand still, and a minute can seem to be a very long time indeed.
With respect to one of the posters, I was unfortunate enough to witness a crash at Mildenhall, on the airfield, and on the news on ITV that evening, a witness complained that it had taken the first emergency vehicle six minutes to reach the scene. I replayed my video, and timed it , and it turned out to be 1minute 30 secs. In instances like this, time does seem to stand still, and a minute can seem to be a very long time indeed.
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On another forum, several posters who were at Duxford July 10 were insisting that the Skyraider pilot sat in his cockpit for 15 minutes before climbing out... without anyone going to the aircraft in that time.
Another poster checked his camera, and it was 4 minutes 30 seconds between the pic of the Skyraider taxying to a stop and the pic of the pilot walking around the aircraft inspecting the damage.
Those other eye-witnesses had tripled the actual time of the events... not uncommon in such circumstances.
Another poster checked his camera, and it was 4 minutes 30 seconds between the pic of the Skyraider taxying to a stop and the pic of the pilot walking around the aircraft inspecting the damage.
Those other eye-witnesses had tripled the actual time of the events... not uncommon in such circumstances.
Nice
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This is basic stuff for the majority of you but the emergency services do not move until instructed to do so by ATC; little point in charging across the active and causing further dramas really.
Fire attend first (when cleared), ensure scene safety then call for ambulance attendance if necessary. The ambo crew then seek clearance also if not already given.
Time does seem to drag for the lay person in an emergency; I'm told there is nothing worse than waiting for an ambulance when you need one!
It's been a couple of years since I've covered Duxford but that's how it was last time I was there.
Cambs Fire & Rescue are already in attendance on the site alongside Duxford Fire Service, snapping up some overtime whilst having a pleasant day out (like myself) no doubt.
Fire attend first (when cleared), ensure scene safety then call for ambulance attendance if necessary. The ambo crew then seek clearance also if not already given.
Time does seem to drag for the lay person in an emergency; I'm told there is nothing worse than waiting for an ambulance when you need one!
It's been a couple of years since I've covered Duxford but that's how it was last time I was there.
Cambs Fire & Rescue are already in attendance on the site alongside Duxford Fire Service, snapping up some overtime whilst having a pleasant day out (like myself) no doubt.
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Here's an interesting follow up from Rob Davies, pilot of Big Beautiful Doll, as told in yesterdays Guardian.
