P51 and Skyraider Collision at Legends 10 Jul 11
Please note, y'all, I didn't say nuffin, and indeed each of us is entitled to make up their own mind. I was just curious if the video had been viewed.
How could #2 on this vic break have become so unsighted from his leader as to have had such a collision?
So, maybe too early to apportion blame, but I will also agree with maxred:
A big shout also for the Skyraider pilot.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: GLASGOW
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well it was the brief I was worried about, because someone, or all of them, did not fly the brief. When I viewed the video, I was concerned about the pull with the lead aircraft, particularly with a beast such as a Skyraider coming up my chuff
Anyway, whatever, lets see what the report brings
Anyway, whatever, lets see what the report brings
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,837
Received 2,805 Likes
on
1,195 Posts
you would have thought they would have held everything on the taxiway or in the circuit to allow the fire service to attend??? you have squat fwd visibility in that situation
you would have thought they would have held everything on the taxiway or in the circuit to allow the fire service to attend???
Maxred & peacock, it doesn't matter what was briefed, if you have lost sight of the other aircraft you don't keep pulling on the stick... The contract generally is n+1 avoids n avoids 4 avoids 3 avoids 2 avoids 1.... and then after that lead does his best to fly smooth and predictable.
An example would be on the pitch lead sees a flock of birds so eases his pitch to go around them. This does not make it okay for #2 to hit him (because he had a slack pitch different to that briefed). #2's first responsibility is to stay visual and avoid lead.
An example would be on the pitch lead sees a flock of birds so eases his pitch to go around them. This does not make it okay for #2 to hit him (because he had a slack pitch different to that briefed). #2's first responsibility is to stay visual and avoid lead.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nutloose
Was sold recently to Germany, so it was a German and French owned American Aircraft over England......... hope that clears things up 
A68-192 G-HAEC " Big Beautiful Doll "
Type:
CA-18 mk.22
Serial #:
A68-192
8 March, 1951: Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation
1951: RAAF
1958: VH-FCB (F.C. Braund)
1961: (Jack McDonald)
1969: PI-C651 Philippines (Prontino Inc.)
1973: crashed on landing, rebuilt using 44-72917 (ex-Phillippine AF P-51)
1981: VR-HIU (Hong Kong)
1985: rebuilt "CV H", shipped to UK
1985: G-HAEC, "Ding Hao", "Missy Wong from Hong Kong", "RAAF A68-192"
1951: RAAF
1958: VH-FCB (F.C. Braund)
1961: (Jack McDonald)
1969: PI-C651 Philippines (Prontino Inc.)
1973: crashed on landing, rebuilt using 44-72917 (ex-Phillippine AF P-51)
1981: VR-HIU (Hong Kong)
1985: rebuilt "CV H", shipped to UK
1985: G-HAEC, "Ding Hao", "Missy Wong from Hong Kong", "RAAF A68-192"
Maxred & peacock, it doesn't matter what was briefed, if you have lost sight of the other aircraft you don't keep pulling on the stick... The contract generally is n+1 avoids n avoids 4 avoids 3 avoids 2 avoids 1.... and then after that lead does his best to fly smooth and predictable.
Another view of the collision here: Video: US Fighter planes collide during Duxford air display - Telegraph
Breaking from vic is always going to require a specific brief - details of which are not in the public domain. But I'm not sure that anyone would ever attempt to break 'blind' without knowing precisely where the aicraft ahead is, H Peacock.
But the AAIB will no doubt investigate the briefing and activity during the break very comprehensively. Fortunately there were no deaths, so it shouldn't take long for the cause of the collision to be established.
Other forums have indicated concern at some of the organisational aspects of this event - something which won't go unnoticed by the AAIB if indeed it is relevant.
Breaking from vic is always going to require a specific brief - details of which are not in the public domain. But I'm not sure that anyone would ever attempt to break 'blind' without knowing precisely where the aicraft ahead is, H Peacock.
But the AAIB will no doubt investigate the briefing and activity during the break very comprehensively. Fortunately there were no deaths, so it shouldn't take long for the cause of the collision to be established.
Other forums have indicated concern at some of the organisational aspects of this event - something which won't go unnoticed by the AAIB if indeed it is relevant.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Nice to see no injuries.
What I see in this video is the mustang is no longer maintaining his turn.
He should be far above the skyraider and much further into his 180 degree break turn.
He's still banked but he's no longer turning before the collision as all the other planes did from the previous passes.
He was banked but no longer turning or climbing.
I'm wondering if he experienced a failure before the collision.
I agree the skyraider should have maintained separation but I'm not sure how much he could have done when faced with a plane that seems to have slowed greatly, stopped turning, and descended.
YouTube - ‪Duxford 2011 P51 Skyraider Crash‬‏
What I see in this video is the mustang is no longer maintaining his turn.
He should be far above the skyraider and much further into his 180 degree break turn.
He's still banked but he's no longer turning before the collision as all the other planes did from the previous passes.
He was banked but no longer turning or climbing.
I'm wondering if he experienced a failure before the collision.
I agree the skyraider should have maintained separation but I'm not sure how much he could have done when faced with a plane that seems to have slowed greatly, stopped turning, and descended.
YouTube - ‪Duxford 2011 P51 Skyraider Crash‬‏
Last edited by Unusual Attitude; 12th Jul 2011 at 08:30.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: UK
Age: 67
Posts: 515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was there both days - going to leave the speculation to others but thankfully the AAIB have a welcome bonus following this incident - both pilots are still with us.
Not sure what the reference to Duxford is about (BEagle posted "Flying Lawyer - do you see what I meant now about Duxford, old chum....??") but accidents are few and far between at airshows there - yes, we lost Hoof Proudfoot in the P-38 and the crew of the Firefly in recent years. I'd say it had a pretty good safety record. Accidents at airshows will happen now matter where they are held. The only way to prevent such events is to ground everything.
Mind you there are some armchair experts on various forums advocating that right now.....
Not sure what the reference to Duxford is about (BEagle posted "Flying Lawyer - do you see what I meant now about Duxford, old chum....??") but accidents are few and far between at airshows there - yes, we lost Hoof Proudfoot in the P-38 and the crew of the Firefly in recent years. I'd say it had a pretty good safety record. Accidents at airshows will happen now matter where they are held. The only way to prevent such events is to ground everything.
Mind you there are some armchair experts on various forums advocating that right now.....
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Manchester
Age: 36
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was at Duxford on Sunday and was already slightly wary of the Skyraiders. As the three A-1s were flying in their allotted slot, they were flying in a vic formation. At one point the other French Skyraider (F-AZHK) broke from the port side as the formation made a climbing turn at the Eastern end of the airfield, just over the threshold of runway 24. In doing so, he then turned onto the base leg and nearly took out two Spitfires which were landing, the Skyraider having to pull up sharply at the last minute. He then pulled into a tight turn and ended up holding some miles to the East, landing on after the other 2 Skyraiders finished their display.
Jokingly i said to my Dad "If i was the Spit pilots, i'd be having words." Luckily, the Skyraiders were parked in front of us and no sooner had the a/c shut down than 3 Spitfire pilots walked over and seemed to be having a rather heated discussion with the Skyraider pilot after the very near miss.
The end result was the Skyraider was not flown in the Balbo, with only the North Weald based a/c and the other Jean Baptiste Salis machine which was involved in the mid-air with Big Beautiful Doll.
Add in the Fokker Dr.1 ending up on its nose and the Nieuport nearly ground looping, it was a day full of drama.
Jokingly i said to my Dad "If i was the Spit pilots, i'd be having words." Luckily, the Skyraiders were parked in front of us and no sooner had the a/c shut down than 3 Spitfire pilots walked over and seemed to be having a rather heated discussion with the Skyraider pilot after the very near miss.
The end result was the Skyraider was not flown in the Balbo, with only the North Weald based a/c and the other Jean Baptiste Salis machine which was involved in the mid-air with Big Beautiful Doll.
Add in the Fokker Dr.1 ending up on its nose and the Nieuport nearly ground looping, it was a day full of drama.
Given that the hours on type of warbird display jockeys vary a lot, it is very fortunate that Rob Davies was the man in the cockpit, as his long familiarity with his former steed would presumably have facilitated his rapid exit....
Interesting, but not surprising, to see the "victories" on the side of the cockpit painted over in the attached photos.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 45 yards from a tropical beach
Posts: 1,103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vic Break
Having had a reasonable amount of formation time in both pistons and jets, I have never flown in a 'Vic Break.' We would always change to the appropriate echelon on the run-in. Apart from being considered dodgy, the Vic Break is a scrappy looking manoeuvre compared with an Echelon Break.
As can be seen from the video, once the leader had pitched up, he was out of sight to the two other aircraft. Such a shame to lose that beaut Mustang.
As can be seen from the video, once the leader had pitched up, he was out of sight to the two other aircraft. Such a shame to lose that beaut Mustang.