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P51 and Skyraider Collision at Legends 10 Jul 11

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P51 and Skyraider Collision at Legends 10 Jul 11

Old 12th Jul 2011, 18:46
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Apart from being considered dodgy, the Vic Break is a scrappy looking manoeuvre compared with an Echelon Break.
Will pass that on to the Reds!

Nothing wrong in breaking from Vic, but a big difference between breaking front-to-back (Reds) or back-to-front (BFTS). However, that has no bearing on this incident. I still maintain you expect the guy 'ahead' of you to be in the correct bit of sky; you can't always watch him throughout whilst you are still in formation before you break!
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Old 12th Jul 2011, 18:50
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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As can be seen from the video, once the leader had pitched up, he was out of sight to the two other aircraft
Are you sure about that? The canopy design on both the P-51D and the Skyraider should allow great visibility if a bit of neck bending takes place!

Is it just me, or does it seem surprising that the heavier, less agile aircraft was the wingman? Would it not be generally easier to have the two P-51s formating on the Skyraider?
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Old 12th Jul 2011, 18:51
  #63 (permalink)  
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As can be seen from the video, once the leader had pitched up, he was out of sight to the two other aircraft.
- as in any break? A vic break is not an issue - it would/should be briefed. I think all sections broke from either vic or finger?
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Old 12th Jul 2011, 19:03
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Rob Davies being interviewed on Anglia News this evening...

Anglia Regional News | Anglia Tonight - ITV Local
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Old 12th Jul 2011, 19:15
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Re: Swastika markings -
One Buchon (C.4K-169) has the outer part of the swastika still showing (the cross part being removed) forming a diamond shape, so it looks better at a passing glance, than just removing it completely...
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Old 12th Jul 2011, 19:31
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Well researched Anglia. Skyrider, for heavens sake.....
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Old 12th Jul 2011, 19:51
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Don't think the break formation shape really matters. The the bloke at the front shouldn't be looking for the bloke breaking behind him. The wingman should keep the guy ahead in sight. I guess he lost him, maybe saw someone ahead downwind, or looked at the wrong height. Either way, it must have been a bit tense jumping out at that height - and lucky it stayed in relatively stable flight.

We've done it too: Aviation History from 1981. Browse historical aircraft from 1981 (article no 13)
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Old 12th Jul 2011, 20:02
  #68 (permalink)  

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We've done it too: Aviation History from 1981. Browse historical aircraft from 1981 (article no 13)
Flt Lt John Cathie was killed in that collision. John and I joined the RAF as direct entrants on the same day (RAF Henlow, number 310 Course, Red Squadron). John won the sword for the best student on the officer training course and appeared to be destined for the upper echelons of the RAF. A very sad loss.

RIP old mate.
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Old 12th Jul 2011, 20:20
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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After Collision "Pics".

A bit late in the thread but here is my pics before and after the collision.
Late in thread due to problems getting Photobucket to work!!!

I was in the South West corner of the airfield and saw the sad event happen.
Very happy to know both pilots made it down OK.

Just before the Aircraft made the Break to land









Damage to wing just visable



Bit of a shaky pic, shows damage to wing



OPF
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Old 12th Jul 2011, 20:47
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Bittersweet, magnificently unhurt, lucky, safe and all those feelings.

Whatever else happened, a skilful recovery of the A1. If you 'must' collide, this is as good an outcome as is possible.

But this sequence of pictures are absolutely stunning.

Thanks for posting.
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Old 12th Jul 2011, 21:08
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I witnessed the Bruggen mid-air. What the Flight Global report does not say is that the aircraft which fell "on the airfield" actually fell inside the conventional bomb dump, close to a huge stack of thousand-pounders. Let us be thankful for explosives storage regulations.
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Old 13th Jul 2011, 13:24
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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How bizarre!

You have a thinly choreographed, self declared "Balbo" involving difficult to fly, high performance machinery. The standard of brief is unclear and even whether all the participants attended a formal pre-sortie "brief" but what is for sure that SOPs in the military sense were non-existent.

Quelle surprise. Reports of aircraft going everywhere and having near misses in the circuit then two clap hands. Anyone else not surprised?
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Old 13th Jul 2011, 14:16
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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The standard of brief is unclear and even whether all the participants attended a formal pre-sortie "brief" but what is for sure that SOPs in the military sense were non-existent.
The "standard of the brief" will be unclear if you weren't there.
There have been plenty of Balbos at Duxford since Legends took over from the Classic Fighter show. Obviously the "SOPs" in the past have worked - would be interested to find out how you think they were "non-existent" this time (without including this accident)...
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Old 13th Jul 2011, 14:29
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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The "standard of the brief" will be unclear if you weren't there.
That's why I said it was unclear! Duh! (as my daughter would say)

If you are telling me that a group of pilots from completely different areas, sometimes languages, backgrounds, aircraft types have a set of SOPs that are as formed as a set of military SOPs then I will gladly retract my statement.

On the other hand, if the SOPs that are in place allow for an aircraft to have a near miss with two others on finals then another aircraft of a similar type to break from the number 3 position and hit his leader (not even the no. 2!!!) then I might suggest those SOPs could be ever so slightly tweeked.
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Old 13th Jul 2011, 14:53
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe your daughter would have phrased it better...

You have a thinly choreographed, self declared "Balbo" involving difficult to fly, high performance machinery.
"Thinly choreographed" & "self declared" - again maybe your daughter would get the point across better but this isn't a last minute, improvised, lets all fly together en masse formation.
Many of the pilots have flown together at Duxford before and have flown in the Balbo before.

Any other incidents which occurred on the day will no doubt be looked into if they really caused near misses, rather than oohs or aahs from spectators with a skewed perspective of what was where and when.
It's amazing how many people were convinced the Mustang had flown into the Skyraider.
The safety record at Duxford is good. That record hasn't been achieved by cobbling together displays stood around the kettle, five minutes before the show opens.

Were you there?
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Old 13th Jul 2011, 16:09
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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No I wasn't there but then again I wasn't at RIAT for the Mig 29 incident and we all know what happened there!
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Old 13th Jul 2011, 16:37
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Would that be before or after the AAIB investigation?........
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Old 13th Jul 2011, 17:08
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Flap62

From your uninformed comments, you obviously have not participated in a Duxford display. I displayed at Duxford for a number of years until the aircraft was recently sold.

In the civil world it is obviously not possible to carry out the massive amount of time and finance that the military expend for their dedicated display performers.

Civil participants are governed by the UK CAA and all pilots are covered by display authorisations, including arrangements to cover visiting foreign aircraft/aircrew.

Very thorough aircrew briefings do indeed take place before every Duxford Display, especially due to the number of foreign pilots involved.

(In my opinion the air safety cause has not been helped by the enthusiastic grounding due 'paperwork' of many of the Duxford aircraft over the last three years by a particular CAA Surveyor, requiring the participation of more non local aircraft/aircrew.)

The run and break at Duxford is briefed, as it is non standard. Due to noise constraints the village on left base to R24 has to be avoided. The initial break is to approx 90 deg and not a continuous turn to downwind, to extend the circuit around the village.
This may turn out to be a factor in this event.
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Old 13th Jul 2011, 20:15
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Agricus highlights the situation of the poor chap in the 'Raider. From what I have seen he seems to have been offered no medical assistance at the aircraft when, at best he must have been suffereing from the onset of severe shock. I wonder if the IWM's post-crash management procedures ask anyone to give a thought to the care that the other party might need? Obviously, the focus was on BBD and its pilot, but someone should have been taking care of the 'Raider pilot as well.
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Old 13th Jul 2011, 20:18
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Glad both pilots safe and well, and no one hurt from crowd line.
Out off curiosity how much would the P51 be worth ?
I hope it's repairable and if not hope it can still be a donor aircraft to another mustang waiting to take to the air again !
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