Well done RAF in Libya but also RA RA Crusaders!
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Well done RAF in Libya but also RA RA Crusaders!
Headlines on BBC news about OUR activity in Libya….Well done the boys and girls. You are all doing a cracking job.
BBC News - RAF destroys Libyan weapons stash
But also the photo:
A pic of a Crusaders' Tonka. I know it is not accurate for the story, but what the hell, 14 Sqn, not with us now, but never to be forgotten. RA! RA! 14 Sqn.
PS – Disclaimer
At time of print BBC website clearly shows a 14 Sqn Tornado. Should the BBC choose to change photo please don’t have a go at me.
BBC News - RAF destroys Libyan weapons stash
But also the photo:
A pic of a Crusaders' Tonka. I know it is not accurate for the story, but what the hell, 14 Sqn, not with us now, but never to be forgotten. RA! RA! 14 Sqn.
PS – Disclaimer
At time of print BBC website clearly shows a 14 Sqn Tornado. Should the BBC choose to change photo please don’t have a go at me.
Last edited by SRENNAPS; 10th Jul 2011 at 19:50.
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A SHAR could have done the job much cheaper and way way quicker from a carrier............not that I actually believe that but it's only a matter of time before some bloody fish head comes in here and tells us so 
Well done to all those involved, top people doing a top job
Well done to all those involved, top people doing a top job
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In my humble opinion, this is all going wrong.
The Yanks have stood back, us and the French are cutting along. Soft Suez?
We don't have the capability, nor do the French. Even combined, we can't influence our own back yard. This is the Med. We can't hack it and I think our American cousins are making the point. A poorly armed third world country in the Med and we can't do much at all.. We are faffing about and underlining the point that times have changed.
Rule Britannia? Not the waves.
English, proud, but sad.
The Yanks have stood back, us and the French are cutting along. Soft Suez?
We don't have the capability, nor do the French. Even combined, we can't influence our own back yard. This is the Med. We can't hack it and I think our American cousins are making the point. A poorly armed third world country in the Med and we can't do much at all.. We are faffing about and underlining the point that times have changed.
Rule Britannia? Not the waves.
English, proud, but sad.
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Monty 77,
I agree with you that it is all wrong but the only reason I posted it was because of a 14 Sqn Tonka.
The lads and lasses are doing a great job but lets face it, it is just yet another political cock up.
Why is it that politicians are the only people in the world that can’t learn form history??????
I agree with you that it is all wrong but the only reason I posted it was because of a 14 Sqn Tonka.
The lads and lasses are doing a great job but lets face it, it is just yet another political cock up.
Why is it that politicians are the only people in the world that can’t learn form history??????
Well done the RAF and the RN and the AAC.
One thing puzzles me.
The figure of £120m for operational costs over a six month (180 day) period equates to £667k per day.
Let us ignore for the moment that Nick Harvey has reported that accommodation for the 900 RAF personnel deployed for Op ELLAMY costs more than £52k per day (£1.57m per month).
A Typhoon costs £70k per flying hour or £210k for each 1,500 mile three hour round trip from Gioia del Colle to the Libyan coast and back without taking into account any loitering or time over target.
So the £667k per day only covers around three Typhoon transits with nothing left for Tornados, Sentinels, AWACS, tankers, C-130s or any other type of RAF aircraft in the air. I would also expect some costs for dedicated infrastructure including C3I, transport (local and UK<>Italy), logs, contractual support, victualling, etc.
How can this be?
One thing puzzles me.
Originally Posted by BBC News 10 Jul 2011
...The government will not provide a full breakdown, but splits the figure into £120m operational costs and £140m to replace the munitions fired over six months, if the Nato-led mission lasts that long...
Let us ignore for the moment that Nick Harvey has reported that accommodation for the 900 RAF personnel deployed for Op ELLAMY costs more than £52k per day (£1.57m per month).
A Typhoon costs £70k per flying hour or £210k for each 1,500 mile three hour round trip from Gioia del Colle to the Libyan coast and back without taking into account any loitering or time over target.
Aircraft Financial Year 2010-11 Cost Per Hour
Tornado GR4 £35,000
Typhoon £70,000
Harrier GR7/GR9 £37,000
Tornado F3 £43,000
Tornado GR4 £35,000
Typhoon £70,000
Harrier GR7/GR9 £37,000
Tornado F3 £43,000
How can this be?
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Aviation consultant/former vmfa pic
POINT TAKEN, THE LAST TIME AMERICAN PILOTS TOOK PART IN AIR STRIKES IN LIBYA, HAVING BEEN ONE IN THE SAME, FRANCE WOULD NOT ALLOW OVER FLIGHTS TO THIS TARGET. SO BEING STATIONED AT AVIANO, MY GROUP DEPLOYED ABOARD CARRIER TO STRIKE SAME. NOT BEING TO 'TOUCHY' ON THIS MATTER...WHEN WILL IT GET ANY BETTER THAN RECENT STRIKE RESULTS WITH NILL LOSSES. RESPECTFULLY....'RHINO RIDER-VW'
I think we all hear you RHINO RIDER-VW - please turn off your Caps Lock next time. People only remember the F-111s that flew from the UK but most of the a/c involved in the raid came from carriers. Which one were you embarked in?
For Operation EL DORADO CANYON in 1986, the US Navy launched 14 A-6E Intruders and 6 A-7E Corsairs from the carrier USS America plus 6 F/A-18 Hornets from the carrier USS Coral Sea (both in the Mediterranean) to bomb radar and anti-aircraft sites in Benghazi before attacking the Benina and Jamahiriya barracks in Tripoli. Two of the A-6Es were forced to abort the mission but all 26 a/c returned to their carriers safely after dropping 72 x 500 lb bombs and firing 12 Shrike and 36 HARM anti-radar missiles.
In the same raid, 18 USAF F-111F Aardvarks (with admittedly larger bomb loads) had to fly from the inconveniently placed aircraft carrier HMS United Kingdom and route around France, Spain and through the Straits of Gibraltar because France, Spain and Italy denied overflight rights and use of their bases (never happens, right?). This added 1,300 miles (2,100 km) to the trip each way and 6-7 hours flight time demanding astronomical AAR (28 tankers). Only eight of the 18 F-111Fs hit the correct targets. Five were forced to abort the mission and one was shot down.
Top cover was provided by several F-14 Tomcats and four E-2C Hawkeye airborne C2 and AEW a/c, all flying from carriers.
For Operation EL DORADO CANYON in 1986, the US Navy launched 14 A-6E Intruders and 6 A-7E Corsairs from the carrier USS America plus 6 F/A-18 Hornets from the carrier USS Coral Sea (both in the Mediterranean) to bomb radar and anti-aircraft sites in Benghazi before attacking the Benina and Jamahiriya barracks in Tripoli. Two of the A-6Es were forced to abort the mission but all 26 a/c returned to their carriers safely after dropping 72 x 500 lb bombs and firing 12 Shrike and 36 HARM anti-radar missiles.
In the same raid, 18 USAF F-111F Aardvarks (with admittedly larger bomb loads) had to fly from the inconveniently placed aircraft carrier HMS United Kingdom and route around France, Spain and through the Straits of Gibraltar because France, Spain and Italy denied overflight rights and use of their bases (never happens, right?). This added 1,300 miles (2,100 km) to the trip each way and 6-7 hours flight time demanding astronomical AAR (28 tankers). Only eight of the 18 F-111Fs hit the correct targets. Five were forced to abort the mission and one was shot down.
Top cover was provided by several F-14 Tomcats and four E-2C Hawkeye airborne C2 and AEW a/c, all flying from carriers.
Last edited by FODPlod; 11th Jul 2011 at 13:02.
Originally Posted by Fire 'n' Forget
Another thread ruined by a muppet banging on about carriers again, why o why do they feel the need to get 'carrier/ Shar' in every thread?
Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose
A SHAR could have done the job much cheaper and way way quicker from a carrier............not that I actually believe that but it's only a matter of time before some bloody fish head comes in here and tells us so
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FODPlod,
The per hour costs quoted in Hansard will relate to the Whole Life Costs of the aircraft through the entire (25+ years of the programme) including the equipment, personnel, infrastructure, training etc. and all other peacetime costs. These are already paid for/budget out of the respective MOD aircraft Project Teams/Top Level Budget holders. Hansard already notes that given the relatively new status of Typhoon and the number of flying hours achieved to date, it makes the cost per flying hour look artificially high and advises that it expects this figure to come back inline with Tornado etc. as in-service status continues.
The additional operational costs for Libya and other contingent operations will be paid for out of the Treasury coffers, therefore they "only" need to cover the additional marginal costs, namely fuel, other consumables and any charges or expenses (basing, ATC?). Therefore I am using my engineering judgement (I have no firm data) that the marginal flying cost per hour of the FJ and ME aircraft is probably more like £10k per hour.
Using your previous figures, this would give over 50 flying hours per day across the flying programme, so enough for a couple of 4-ships and some multi engine activity.
Hope this helps. QA
The per hour costs quoted in Hansard will relate to the Whole Life Costs of the aircraft through the entire (25+ years of the programme) including the equipment, personnel, infrastructure, training etc. and all other peacetime costs. These are already paid for/budget out of the respective MOD aircraft Project Teams/Top Level Budget holders. Hansard already notes that given the relatively new status of Typhoon and the number of flying hours achieved to date, it makes the cost per flying hour look artificially high and advises that it expects this figure to come back inline with Tornado etc. as in-service status continues.
The additional operational costs for Libya and other contingent operations will be paid for out of the Treasury coffers, therefore they "only" need to cover the additional marginal costs, namely fuel, other consumables and any charges or expenses (basing, ATC?). Therefore I am using my engineering judgement (I have no firm data) that the marginal flying cost per hour of the FJ and ME aircraft is probably more like £10k per hour.
Using your previous figures, this would give over 50 flying hours per day across the flying programme, so enough for a couple of 4-ships and some multi engine activity.
Hope this helps. QA
Thank you QA. It seems as good a stab as any although I'm sure you won't mind if I withold judgement for the time being. I do think it's rather optimistic to expect the cost of Typhoon flying hours to "come back in line with Tornado" in view of the sums involved in the former's acquisition and through-life support (link) but it looks an extremely capable a/c.
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I hear Dr Fox has announced the payment of the 'Op Allowance' to military personnel engaged on Op Ellamy. As usual, the devil will be in the detail. Anyone know any details?
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Allowance
According to the BBC
"UK forces operating in Libyan airspace and territorial waters will be paid an extra £29.02 a day, tax-free, backdated to the start of military action in March 2011."
BBC News - UK Libya troops to get operational pay, Liam Fox says
"UK forces operating in Libyan airspace and territorial waters will be paid an extra £29.02 a day, tax-free, backdated to the start of military action in March 2011."
BBC News - UK Libya troops to get operational pay, Liam Fox says
