Defence Board Civilianised (More or less) - merged
Pontious,
That's not quite how I read it. Extarct from the report below:
and the report specifically mentions the transfer of CAP personnel on the second floor back to the FLCs.
That's not quite how I read it. Extarct from the report below:
conducting their own force development process to propose, in their Command
Plan, optimum, affordable force structure (including equipment) which will best
deliver the Defence Board’s requirements;
• the development and generation of their Service to ensure it is balanced to deliver
Defence outputs now and in the future. This would include recruiting, educating,
training, equipping, preparing and sustaining ther Service;
• running their Service and the Command TLB – being accountable for delivering
agreed outputs within their delegated budget – making choices, within the
framework of the Command Plan and the corporate framework set out in part 8,
about the best balance between manpower, training, equipment, support etc and
between different capability areas;
• acting as the customer for CDM, setting the detailed equipment and support
requirements and budgets, and articulating their infrastructure requirements for
delivery by the Defence Infrastructure Organisation;
Plan, optimum, affordable force structure (including equipment) which will best
deliver the Defence Board’s requirements;
• the development and generation of their Service to ensure it is balanced to deliver
Defence outputs now and in the future. This would include recruiting, educating,
training, equipping, preparing and sustaining ther Service;
• running their Service and the Command TLB – being accountable for delivering
agreed outputs within their delegated budget – making choices, within the
framework of the Command Plan and the corporate framework set out in part 8,
about the best balance between manpower, training, equipment, support etc and
between different capability areas;
• acting as the customer for CDM, setting the detailed equipment and support
requirements and budgets, and articulating their infrastructure requirements for
delivery by the Defence Infrastructure Organisation;
Cunning Artificer
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Speaking as a citizen, the first (and some say the only) duty of a government is defence of the state against external aggression. What I see in the present and proposed arrangements is the capability for participating in foreign intervention coalitions. I don't see in the present arrangements much (or even any) sign of defence against outside aggression. We're an island nation: where is the control of our airspace? or our coastal waters? or our sea lanes - the veins that carry our lifeblood as one old, bold Prime Minister once called them.
What also alarms me is that the members of the armed forces here present seem satisfied with the lack of true "defensive" capability and are only arguing about what form the command structure for our future wimpish little international intervention force should be. Personally, I'd be happy to have dozens of Air Chief Marshals sitting round the board table of the Air Council debating the training and deployment of our hundreds of front line squadrons, while down the road, Admirals and Generals were doing similar "force projection studies" for the more than one million men and women in uniform, defending our nation.
But we can't afford that. Dream on BS... There isn't enough money in the kitty to defend ourselves and pay the bankers.
What also alarms me is that the members of the armed forces here present seem satisfied with the lack of true "defensive" capability and are only arguing about what form the command structure for our future wimpish little international intervention force should be. Personally, I'd be happy to have dozens of Air Chief Marshals sitting round the board table of the Air Council debating the training and deployment of our hundreds of front line squadrons, while down the road, Admirals and Generals were doing similar "force projection studies" for the more than one million men and women in uniform, defending our nation.
But we can't afford that. Dream on BS... There isn't enough money in the kitty to defend ourselves and pay the bankers.
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Also follow the USAF model with two wg cdrs on a unit. One running the base the other running the wing
There seems to be a strange view amongst some that the RAF is over ranked just because sqn ldrs don't lead sqns. In fact the RAF is the same as, or more conservative than, similar sized air forces, get over the rank names, it could be our first "tradition"!
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Hear this every time yet funnily enough when you head out to the 'stan we all seem to have roughly the same size commands at the same rank. Arguably OC AH and OC CH have slightly larger commands. All would seem to debunk the widely held theory that an RAF Flt should be commanded by a Flt Lt when it is 4 times the size of an AAC Flt that is also commanded by a Capt. All CHF SK Sqn Cdrs are Cdrs too I believe.
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Hmmm.
"no organisational model can work unless its senior leadership takes the tough decisions that reconcile ambition with reality. Some of the perceived problems of the current model are simply symptoms of the friction caused by the lack of such decisions in the past."
Very true.
The general thrust of it, I dont see much issue with; Personally, I've been keen on the idea of top to bottom reform for quite some time.
The only slight concern is (apart from if it is achieved rather than being resisted at every turn/kicked into the long grass) that although successful implementation of it may leave us with an arguably better management structure and hopefully, if Gray's procurement reforms are seen through, what of the overall balance of the entire package at the moment and our abilities to respond to events both in UK and regionally (also FI) in the meantime. The lack of the true S in SDSR, with it being a Treasury led scalping exercise and the disjointed withdrawl/drawdown of capabilities/capability holidays/sabbaticals leaves us, in my very humble opinion with a number of years where we are going to be at significantly reduced capability and therefore more vulnerable than what we should be.
Granted, I know Gordon lied about his money tree and the tories are no better than New Liebore, but nonetheless... we've said it so often and although it is always tempered by political realism and a degree of hard won cynicism, the first duty of government is the security and defence of the nation.
Seems like a move in the right direction though. Hope it works.
Very true.
The general thrust of it, I dont see much issue with; Personally, I've been keen on the idea of top to bottom reform for quite some time.
The only slight concern is (apart from if it is achieved rather than being resisted at every turn/kicked into the long grass) that although successful implementation of it may leave us with an arguably better management structure and hopefully, if Gray's procurement reforms are seen through, what of the overall balance of the entire package at the moment and our abilities to respond to events both in UK and regionally (also FI) in the meantime. The lack of the true S in SDSR, with it being a Treasury led scalping exercise and the disjointed withdrawl/drawdown of capabilities/capability holidays/sabbaticals leaves us, in my very humble opinion with a number of years where we are going to be at significantly reduced capability and therefore more vulnerable than what we should be.
Granted, I know Gordon lied about his money tree and the tories are no better than New Liebore, but nonetheless... we've said it so often and although it is always tempered by political realism and a degree of hard won cynicism, the first duty of government is the security and defence of the nation.
Seems like a move in the right direction though. Hope it works.
I read the report and thought it was balanced, well argued and a sensible package of proposals. The issue of the DB is completely overblown by journalists who don't understand what the DB does - the DB will in future provide political direction, and top level strategic management to Defence - the board will only have CDS, PUS, DG Fin, CDM Ministers and 3 Non executive directors on it. So I make that the head of the armed forces (Mil), the head of the MOD CS (PUS), 1 CS post (DG Fin) and one rotational (CDM) which seems to be either Mil or CS depending on who is right for the job. The Non Exec Directors will be independents to provide guidance - so in other words we have no CS dominance at all.
The DB sets the top level strategic direction and leaves it to CDS to tell the COSSAF committee (where the 3 service chiefs will now sit) what is required and then work out how to do it. Seems a fairly sensible compromise to me - lets pay the service chiefs to run their service, rather than spend the time engaging in whitehall warfare.
The report is tough reading for some because it looks harshly at some sacred cows, is tough on noting that the MOD is to blame for its financial problems and that actually a lot of our problems lie closer to home than many of us would usually admit. It doesnt sugarcoat, it does note things that many won't like (such as the fact that a lot of jobs done by Mil could be done far more cheaply by CS and deliver the same effect) and that actually we need to change radically to keep up to speed.
Sadly this very sensible balanced report is being lost amidst the stupid cries of 'CS are stealing all the power' which a quick read would show is completely untrue. Perhaps if people spent less time beleiving the tabloid BS about the report, and more time reading the report then they'd calm down - although then they wouldnt be able to be outraged, which frankly is outrageous in itself...
The DB sets the top level strategic direction and leaves it to CDS to tell the COSSAF committee (where the 3 service chiefs will now sit) what is required and then work out how to do it. Seems a fairly sensible compromise to me - lets pay the service chiefs to run their service, rather than spend the time engaging in whitehall warfare.
The report is tough reading for some because it looks harshly at some sacred cows, is tough on noting that the MOD is to blame for its financial problems and that actually a lot of our problems lie closer to home than many of us would usually admit. It doesnt sugarcoat, it does note things that many won't like (such as the fact that a lot of jobs done by Mil could be done far more cheaply by CS and deliver the same effect) and that actually we need to change radically to keep up to speed.
Sadly this very sensible balanced report is being lost amidst the stupid cries of 'CS are stealing all the power' which a quick read would show is completely untrue. Perhaps if people spent less time beleiving the tabloid BS about the report, and more time reading the report then they'd calm down - although then they wouldnt be able to be outraged, which frankly is outrageous in itself...
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Look on the bright side - with only one military on the DB, we will know who to blame for any cost overspends! It will not be the military.
As for modelling on the Australian system - one has to ask if it is true - why? What war (air wise) were they last in - Vietnam or Korea?
US Bases - led by about 6 to 7 Colonels - not Lt Cols!
And if we are to cull stars, why did this last review open up ANOTHER Command? And from what I read in Janes, there might be another Joint Command on the way.
As for modelling on the Australian system - one has to ask if it is true - why? What war (air wise) were they last in - Vietnam or Korea?
US Bases - led by about 6 to 7 Colonels - not Lt Cols!
And if we are to cull stars, why did this last review open up ANOTHER Command? And from what I read in Janes, there might be another Joint Command on the way.
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Read the report!
I have just finished reading the Levene paper and I agree with Widger and Jimlad - it is a well written and sensible document which puts forward practical and useful recommendations. If they are implemented as a package, as the paper urges, there is a very good chance that UK Defence could be transformed for the better. Interestingly, aside from the headline grabbers (Chiefs of staff to go to Cmd HQs; abolition of C-in-Cs) a large part of the recommendations are evolutionary and simply extend measures that have already been accepted by the defence community. So, to answer my own question - "Yes but with caveats".
In the RAF case, being a far smaller organisation especially on our small MOB, I suggest the same wing commander as commander of a wing be just that, a Wg Cdr.
Not sure which USAF bases you used to visit but Google any US Base on the af.mil domain. Choose "Library > Biographies" and have a look at how many Colonels (Gp Capts) are on each base!! Their "wgs" are no longer led by wing commanders.
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PN
Could be easier than that. For FJ and SH Sqns simply retitle them as wings with each of the flights (currently commanded by sqn ldrs) becoming squadrons. ie next Typhoon FGR4 unit to form at Leuchars could be 125 Expeditionary Air Wing (what we currently call EAWs are - until deployed - Expeditionary Air Combat Service Support Units) That could comprise:
HQ AIR command could become Royal Air Force HQ commanded by the Chief of the Air Staff with his 2x 3* DCASs. Leaving the current 2* groups as 2* Commands each comprising a number of groups - Air Combat (1 Gp (Marham), 2 Gp (Lossiemouth), 8 Gp (Waddington) 11 Gp (Coningsby) 13 Gp (Leuchars) (deliberately avoiding the LEU/LOS debate)), Air Support (38 Gp (Brize Norton), 18 Gp (SAR Force - for now) with FP and ACSSUs (these 'could' be given gp status as well), Training (with numbered groups at Valley, Linton, Cranwell, Halton...)?
At a stroke, visibly regaining some of our heritage with very little effort.
GICASI, the kicker in your list is of course the sqn cdr at sqn ldr level. The rank was inflated to give pay for the responsibility. The solution, where we discussed it before, is to reduce sqn UE and AE by half but at the same time double the number of sqns
HQ Sqn - Comprising ExecO, QWI, Ops, Admin etc
Wg Eng O (formerly SEngo) with Wg WO, Eng Ops
43(F) Sqn commanded by a sqn ldr comprising:
Each flying station would then comprise 3-4 EAWs, 3 support wings, with, possibly, a Force Protection Wg as well. Now you could call that collection of wings - commanded by a group captain/air commodore - something like a Group -13 Gp for Leuchars even.Wg Eng O (formerly SEngo) with Wg WO, Eng Ops
43(F) Sqn commanded by a sqn ldr comprising:
Flying Flt - Aircrew, commanded by Senior Flt Lt
Eng Flt - Commanded by Flt Lt (formerly JEngO)with a FS and associated Techs
Chicken Flt commanded by a cockerel
111(F) Sqn with the same compostition as 43(F) Sqn less poultryEng Flt - Commanded by Flt Lt (formerly JEngO)with a FS and associated Techs
Chicken Flt commanded by a cockerel
HQ AIR command could become Royal Air Force HQ commanded by the Chief of the Air Staff with his 2x 3* DCASs. Leaving the current 2* groups as 2* Commands each comprising a number of groups - Air Combat (1 Gp (Marham), 2 Gp (Lossiemouth), 8 Gp (Waddington) 11 Gp (Coningsby) 13 Gp (Leuchars) (deliberately avoiding the LEU/LOS debate)), Air Support (38 Gp (Brize Norton), 18 Gp (SAR Force - for now) with FP and ACSSUs (these 'could' be given gp status as well), Training (with numbered groups at Valley, Linton, Cranwell, Halton...)?
At a stroke, visibly regaining some of our heritage with very little effort.
Last edited by Climebear; 29th Jun 2011 at 08:07.
Blacksheep hit the nail on the head. Quote:
"Speaking as a citizen, the first (and some say the only) duty of a government is defence of the state against external aggression. What I see in the present and proposed arrangements is the capability for participating in foreign intervention coalitions. I don't see in the present arrangements much (or even any) sign of defence against outside aggression. We're an island nation: where is the control of our airspace? or our coastal waters? or our sea lanes - the veins that carry our lifeblood as one old, bold Prime Minister once called them."
What defences does the UK have today? During the Cold War our Armed Forces were totally (& correctly) geared to defence of our island. We had F4's on QRA in the UK & at RAF Wildenrath in Germany. We had Harriers at RAF Gutersloh, Jaguars at RAF Bruggen, several hundred Main Battle Tanks at various German locations, Rapier at all RAFG airfields for local airfield defence, 2 squadrons of Bloodhound SAM's with a range of 85 miles to 60,000ft in the UK & at Wildenrath, Bruggen & Laarbruch, 48 Tornados at Laarbruch with H-Bombs & a REAL Navy with Aircraft Carriers/ Harriers. We also had a Nimrod force armed with (admittedly US provided/maintained weapons) nuclear depth charges & the "Stealthy " 51 Sqn at RAF Wyton. (And probably a lot more that I have forgotten!)
Today we have an OFFENSIVE Royal Air Force with its expensive but poorly supported maintenance (by civilian contractors - what a disaster), a miniscule OFFENSIVE submarine fleet (armed & supported by the USA) & virtually no heavy armour within the army.
Our skies are policed by "Fighter Controllers" watching outdated & obsolete radar pictures whereas the USAF has "Over the Horizon" radar due to their pumping billions into the latest technology. There should no longer be a need for an idiot on the ground in an underground bunker getting a radar display, to tell an attack pilot "Turn Port 3 degrees - target 40 miles"! Nowadays this can be satellite fed direct to the weapon platform.
The MOD is living in the dark ages, run by Dinosaur Senior Officers, whose only desire is to see out their days in MOD Main Building drawing their Central London allowances & having free accomodation by Admiralty Arch.
Without significant investment in a new long range SAM system, proper upgrading of the Typhoon weapon systems, Refitting the 2 Aircraft Carriers & bring the Harriers out of mothballs & having a complete re-think of the role of the Army there is absolutely no hope for any form of defence of the UK.
But hey ho - It doesn't really matter. With no immigration controls & over 3 million "dubious characters" allowed into the UK - many who would strangely blow themselves (&, hopefully, you) up, we have lost our security.
Go Think. (The ravings of a man who realised 20 years ago that he wouldn't trust a single MP - unless that MP had put his life on the line in the Armed Forces. I've yet to meet one....)
"Speaking as a citizen, the first (and some say the only) duty of a government is defence of the state against external aggression. What I see in the present and proposed arrangements is the capability for participating in foreign intervention coalitions. I don't see in the present arrangements much (or even any) sign of defence against outside aggression. We're an island nation: where is the control of our airspace? or our coastal waters? or our sea lanes - the veins that carry our lifeblood as one old, bold Prime Minister once called them."
What defences does the UK have today? During the Cold War our Armed Forces were totally (& correctly) geared to defence of our island. We had F4's on QRA in the UK & at RAF Wildenrath in Germany. We had Harriers at RAF Gutersloh, Jaguars at RAF Bruggen, several hundred Main Battle Tanks at various German locations, Rapier at all RAFG airfields for local airfield defence, 2 squadrons of Bloodhound SAM's with a range of 85 miles to 60,000ft in the UK & at Wildenrath, Bruggen & Laarbruch, 48 Tornados at Laarbruch with H-Bombs & a REAL Navy with Aircraft Carriers/ Harriers. We also had a Nimrod force armed with (admittedly US provided/maintained weapons) nuclear depth charges & the "Stealthy " 51 Sqn at RAF Wyton. (And probably a lot more that I have forgotten!)
Today we have an OFFENSIVE Royal Air Force with its expensive but poorly supported maintenance (by civilian contractors - what a disaster), a miniscule OFFENSIVE submarine fleet (armed & supported by the USA) & virtually no heavy armour within the army.
Our skies are policed by "Fighter Controllers" watching outdated & obsolete radar pictures whereas the USAF has "Over the Horizon" radar due to their pumping billions into the latest technology. There should no longer be a need for an idiot on the ground in an underground bunker getting a radar display, to tell an attack pilot "Turn Port 3 degrees - target 40 miles"! Nowadays this can be satellite fed direct to the weapon platform.
The MOD is living in the dark ages, run by Dinosaur Senior Officers, whose only desire is to see out their days in MOD Main Building drawing their Central London allowances & having free accomodation by Admiralty Arch.
Without significant investment in a new long range SAM system, proper upgrading of the Typhoon weapon systems, Refitting the 2 Aircraft Carriers & bring the Harriers out of mothballs & having a complete re-think of the role of the Army there is absolutely no hope for any form of defence of the UK.
But hey ho - It doesn't really matter. With no immigration controls & over 3 million "dubious characters" allowed into the UK - many who would strangely blow themselves (&, hopefully, you) up, we have lost our security.
Go Think. (The ravings of a man who realised 20 years ago that he wouldn't trust a single MP - unless that MP had put his life on the line in the Armed Forces. I've yet to meet one....)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
SOSL, probably not. Now why would the plebs not be overly concerned with a fallingn star count?
Reflect on how many stars you see in a year or ever even.
One notable day at Waddo our star count was about 12. On most units you are lucky if it is between 2 and 6.
How many non-RAF stars are seen by light blue personnel?
My brown star count is I believe four and that because I had to deliver a box of oranges to Flag Staff House and we were hosted by the Governor of Guernsey. Dark blue is about two IIRC, also in Guernsey.
Best star count had to be the Waddo dining in night followed by Runnymede last year when it was well in to double figures.
Given the total star count on the books they are invisible on the ground and most visible when 4* like CAS and CinC do a farewell jolly round the houses by which time any finger poking becomes pointless.
Remember the old days when any strange aircraft dropping in may be the AOC or CinC on a casual visit?
Reflect on how many stars you see in a year or ever even.
One notable day at Waddo our star count was about 12. On most units you are lucky if it is between 2 and 6.
How many non-RAF stars are seen by light blue personnel?
My brown star count is I believe four and that because I had to deliver a box of oranges to Flag Staff House and we were hosted by the Governor of Guernsey. Dark blue is about two IIRC, also in Guernsey.
Best star count had to be the Waddo dining in night followed by Runnymede last year when it was well in to double figures.
Given the total star count on the books they are invisible on the ground and most visible when 4* like CAS and CinC do a farewell jolly round the houses by which time any finger poking becomes pointless.
Remember the old days when any strange aircraft dropping in may be the AOC or CinC on a casual visit?
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The "Good old days" - IIRC the most "Stars" I had on a single flight was 47 back in the '80s. On the other hand I flew 80 MP's and Lords to Normandy for the 40th Anniversary of D-Day in 1984.
The "Good old days" - IIRC the most "Stars" I had on a single flight was 47 back in the '80s. On the other hand I flew 80 MP's and Lords to Normandy for the 40th Anniversary of D-Day in 1984.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
caz, I take both your points 
But I see no one is disagreeing with my point yet.
But I see no one is disagreeing with my point yet.
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As for modelling on the Australian system - one has to ask if it is true - why? What war (air wise) were they last in - Vietnam or Korea?
