PVRs started.....

[Exascot]

Slightly off topic but relevant question....if you accept promotion to Sqn Ldr at age 36 does your 16/38 option point cease to exist and become a 44 option point? If so, and you still want to leave at 38-39 years old, do you then have to PVR with associated loss of Flying Pay?

I was in this position, albeit 16 yrs ago. However they just wanted me to extend one year to do three in post. I refused so they gave me 'acting' paid. I retired at my 16/38 on Sqn Ldr pension. And, incidentally, you retain the retired rank after a certain time, I forget how long.

[st nicholas]

I knew a chap who was royally shafted by Army. Punishment totally outweighed the crime. A punishment posting to Germany followed. He then adopted a passive resistance policy.

1. Failed all flying checks deliberately despite being seen to be keen and enthusiastic.

2. Developed a punctuation and spelling impediment that limited the paperwork the regiment would allow him to send.

3. When volunteered for a watch keepers post in ....... informed Colonel he would do everything in his power to lower the corps standing within the rest of the army.

4. Spent an enjoyable last few months service as regimental skiing officer.

Never underestimate the power of apathy.

PS Your flying record does not follow you to civi street.

[Farfrompuken]

Skaterboi,

there is a 2 year Expectation of service on promotion, but no return of service.

2 years substantive to get pension or 3 years acting rank.

[The Old Fat One]

Apologies did not mean to mislead. I know of course your flying record does not follow into civvy street.

What I meant was, in these days of legally neutral references, it is unlikely anything you do in the military will follow you into civvy street; unless...

a. It was a major crime.
b. It comes out via personal contact (as opposed to official reference).

Since I left I have worked for companies large (large as in huge) and small (small as in four of us). None has ever shown the slightest interest in my military career or ever sought a reference the RAF/MOD.

[skaterboi]

Thanks

So, if promoted at 36, two years to amortise and I can leave at my original 16/38 point with a Sqn Ldr pension. I guess the only fly in the ointment is a new type OCU will demand a 3 year ROS....

Sorry for the thread drift, just don't want to show all my cards if I don't need to!

[thefodfather]

I was promoted at 35 1/2 and my 38/16 point was extended by 6 months to provide 3 years ROS to my pension and that was only 3 years or so ago.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

I was the same. Promoted substantive (in 2006) 18 months before 16 year point, on the condition I stay in for minimum of 3 years, so left after 17 1/2 years instead with a much better pension. Wouldn't have held acting rank for long enough to get pension by original 38 point, so stuck it out for another 18 months to get it.

[Chugalug2]

Runaway Gun:

In such difficult times, how can OC's and Flight Commanders continue to maintain flight safety, efficiency and morale? I mean, there's only so many "grit your teeth and get on with it boys, we have another bumpy ride ahead" speeches that we can take.

I don't know whether this comment was anything more than rhetorical hand-wringing, but I for one think that you are onto the nub of the mess that is the present RAF (sorry if that offends anyone!). I told a story earlier of one of my bosses going beyond the call of duty for me, he was merely one of many of my bosses that went out on a limb for those who they commanded. That is the crucial point, they commanded! They had the discretion and the power to get things done, to stop other things being done and in short to ensure the operational efficiency of their Squadron by ensuring the welfare of those in their Squadron.
Unless and until the Powers of Subordinate Commanders are regained to those that they had in my day then morale will plummet and PVR's will prevail. OK, I own up, I PVR'd (in 1973 to set the time scale ;-) but not because of low morale, I had a great time and wouldn't have changed a thing. It was just that when push came to shove I wanted to go on flying and the RAF didn't. A comment on me rather than it, no doubt.
If the reorganisation of the MOD means that the RAF has a greater control of its own budget then that control should be fed down to its real commanders of men and women, ie those in command at squadron/unit, wing and station levels. With increased powers the ability of subordinate commanders to improve the lives of those they command would mean higher morale and retention. Even better if those commanders are Sqn Ldrs, Wing Cdrs, and Gp Capts respectively!

[Runaway Gun]

Thanks Chuga - it was a serious question

[Aggro]

PVR and EU legislation

Haven't posted for a while but happen to know that the 1 month notice does apply in law, as long as there is no ROS from an OCU or academic course that applies. Even then, only a proportion of the cost of that course is payable. They may come looking for you initially but if you redirect them to your lawyer, citing EU legislation as your justification for leaving with minimal notice, they will not want to go to court to have the precedent proven publicly. However, the resettlement package is excellent and gives you the option of being better prepared to take a good offer rather than the first. There are lots of ways to make the 12 months inefficient for the Service and maximise it's value to you so if they insist on you staying, why not use the time wisely to make sure there is less hassle and no potential pension/gratuity payment issues? 12 months is actually more like 9 when you take the various sets of leave into account which isn't as long as you think when you're job hunting.

[Willard Whyte]

The problem Chug, is going to be how to motivate those who've been made redundant against their will*. I've been around a bit and never met anyone with enough charisma to pull that little trick, not lately anyway. I've met plenty of tossers who I'd happily attempt to knock seven shades of shi* out of though.

*May as well be let them out the day they're told and simply pay them for another 12 months. Better still just give them their 12 months wages in yet another lump sum in addition to the ones they will already get.

[Chugalug2]

Point taken, WW. It seems to me (admittedly looking in from afar, as it were) that the Service has many things that need sorting out. The culling of Fleets, Stations, Units, etc, raises morale issues that even my excellent bosses would have been hard put to deal with. These though must be relatively shortlived, unless the process continues to its logical conclusion of total extinction.
More long term is the chronic low morale caused by the relative powerlessness of commanders to solve housing, welfare, financial worries, etc. They used to be able to. They need to be able to again. I have bored for Britain on this previously, so won't prolong the agony other than to say that nothing is sacred if operational effectiveness is at stake.
If the monster that is the MOD can be tamed, then the bean-counters that have wrought upon the Armed Services what our enemies failed to can be defeated as well. Effective subordinate commanders evolve into capable very senior officers, a species long thought to be extinct. A disciplined force needs leaders. Time the Royal Air Force treated itself to some!

[Bob Viking]

Leadership eh?!

At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man (it's early and I haven't had the best night's sleep), we don't appear to be in the business of promoting leaders nowadays. It seems to me that we promote administrators. I realise there are exceptions to this rather sweeping statement and I would just love to be proven wrong. However, I think the system has got it all wrong at the moment and I, for one, would rather be commanded by a leader that I thought was a bit of a knob than an admin guru that was my best mate.
BV

[over-talk]

Treating the symptoms or the cause?

Good leaders or not, the way I see it recent events have shown that people need to have a backup plan as demonstrated by what happened to the Nimrod, Harrier and F3 boys and girls. My guess is that Sentinel won’t be needed after HERRICK, Tristar is on it’s way out along with the VC10. FSTA is on the horizon along with A400M but who knows... The Merlin may or may not be off to the Navy and puma 2 may or may not come in along with uncertainty over the buy of more Chinooks. If you have a family to support (as a lot of us do) you need to have something in your back pocket.

Due to the levels of equivalence for UK QSPs (correct me if I’m wrong here) if you’re anything but a ME captain, your looking at anything from £20,000 to £40,000 (depending on your situation) to get your ATPL(A).

As I’ve explained, if flying is the only thing that you want to do (and not some desk - worst case: BALO or other S%@*T job) and you need ensure that you can support yourself and your family, it’s the only thing to do.

After having spent that much money, you might start to wander if it’s really worth staying in an organisation that: gives you little job satisfaction on the whole, causes quite a lot of strain to your closest relationships, has frozen your pay, has made it much more difficult or impossible to pay for your children to go to a good school, has taken away allowances that were once there, and if the Hutton report is anything to go by will seriously change your future pension to your financial detriment.

All the time you spend treading water in an organisation that has consistently taken entitlements away from you, you are missing opportunities to get onto the ‘seniority ladder’ of the airlines.

We all joined, I guess because we love flying, wanted to change the world for the better and work with great people. Well there is not much fun flying to be had anymore, politics and in-fighting reduce the impact of the good that is done (although I’m sure that we still do some) and there are professional dedicated people in the civilian world.

I think that people are weighing up the decision based on some or all the above factors and coming to the conclusion that it’s just not fair to their families for them to stay in. A one year wait without flying pay may stop a few, (and i definitely think by the way that it is very unfair to the people who have put their lives on the line time and again for their country and just want a better life for themselves and their families - which the RAF is unable to provide) but I think that it will ultimately be a futile attempt to manage the symptoms whilst ignoring the cause.

[Red Line Entry]

Actually, Bob, it's because we've had leaders who were knobs (from an administrative perspective) that we're in the sh1t now! They failed completely to align their desire for more kit with the hard reality of not enough money in the pot. It wasn't difficult to forsee the problem - plenty of people had been highlighting it. But there was a collective desire not to look facts in the face.

Personally, I'd rather have had an admin wallah in the chair if he'd had the backbone to stop the madness that was the equipment procurement programme.

Now I sound like a grumpy old man!

[1.3VStall]

When I joined the RAF we most certainly had had leaders and commanders.

My first squadron commander, who subsequently went on to be a station commander (and beyond), taught me some valuable lessons about leadership. He had the squadron (and later his station) eating out of the palm of his hand and was universally respected and admired. Nearly 40 years after my arrival interview in his office I still could call him nothing else but "Boss" at our annual reunion. He was not alone in those days; there were many genuine leaders who could engender both loyalty and affection. In fact good leaders and commanders was the norm.

Where did it all go wrong? I believe about the time the RAF started talking about managers, executives, directors, budget holders and agencies. The Service lost itself in management speak and a whole generation of navel-gazing, anally-retentive senior officers was born.

It saddens me to read a thread such as this. So many RAF officers of today are quite clearly very jaundiced, have little loyalty and have no respect for their senior officers, who in turn appear blind to the needs and aspirations of their subordinates.

Quite what can be done to recover the situation is beyond me,

[Biggus]

Nothing....it's too far gone.

[The Old Fat One]

So many RAF officers of today are quite clearly very jaundiced, have little loyalty and have no respect for their senior officers, who in turn appear blind to the needs and aspirations of their subordinates.

People have loyalty to people. In battle soldiers have loyalty to each other and fight for the man next to them. Throughout my career, practically every person I served with was loyal to his fellow men (and women) to his boss and to his subordinates.

When it comes to loyalty to a "thing", like a country, a service or a company, life gets a little more complicated. When the "thing" spends its whole time sticking large objects up your hole thing...the novelty of loyalty to the "thing" quickly wears thin.

Apologies if that got a little flowery...halfway down the post BBQ second bottle of Merlot.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by The Old Fat One

People have loyalty to people. In battle soldiers have loyalty to each other and fight for the man next to them. Throughout my career, practically every person I served with was loyal to his fellow men (and women) to his boss and to his subordinates.

Loyalty is a two-way street.

On my first tour the JOs did not believe their SOs, in particular the top dog, were loyal to them. He had been assuring those newly posted in that the station was not going to close and they could buy a house locally. Less than 2 months later the station had closed and the wing moved in its entirety to another unit, staish and all.

When he departed he summoned all the officers and then berated us as the most rebellious lot of JOs he had ever met.

A similar thing happened at Lossie when the staish believed the professionalism (lack of) of some aircrew threatened his stairway to the stars. I think something similar happened at Leuchars.

Sadly there are many instances where one can disagree with TOFO, (noted you did say practically every person .

[minigundiplomat]

PN,

those days are long gone. The current executive style is to sit on the pot for 2 years and do nothing risky at all, just making sure it doesnt boil over.

Of course, nothing improves, and all the problems are swept under the carpet for the next incumbent - but a sure fire route to Air Commodore for many.