Farewell Maritime

[Not Long Here]

Ivan,

Sincerely hope that is only a rumour. What a despicable action to even think of taking.

[MFC_Fly]

Disgraceful!!

I think considering the support the Mighty Hunter has provided to the Army they would be happy to look after her. If not there will probably be many ex-Kipper Fleet living in the area willing to do so.

MFC

[davejb]

I'll volunteer to keep the dry team areas dusted <g>
(I could do it on the way home from work).

Better nip down the road wiv me camera I guess, just in case the rumour has some foundation in reality. (Granted that WOULD make this thread somewhat unusual for Pprune....)

[Tallsar]

The LRMPA Nimrods have served with great distinction and success over more than 4 decades protecting and aiding the Nation in so many ways...and no more so than at Kinloss..the veritable post modern home of Maritime and the Nimrod over those years (yes sorry to those from the Duchy....I know it started there but that's not the point!). The Mighty H has earned it's place, more so than many, to be revered for decades to come as a Gate Guardian and as a clear reminder of what and who went before and should come again ( but then maybe that's the prob in this double speak age we live in!). I am too far away now...but surely there must be someone (There at least 2 ex Kipper Fleet starred officers nearby!) will lay down in front of the demolition machines if needed?
I pray it's a rumour....

[NutLoose]

After the amazing support we received from the community on Tuesday marching through Forres rumour has it the gate guard (Nimrod MR2 XV240) will be destroyed next week! Why the indecent haste to destroy any maritime heritage for the area and remove an already popular local feature which would surely become a lasting connection and reminder in years to come. I can't see a reason why it couldn't be kept; St.Mawgan still manages to keep the Shack in good condition. Even if Kinloss goes Army there is no reason why it couldn't remain, especially considering the support they received from it in recent years (I believe Bassingbourn Camp still has a Canberra).
If it is true, who is responsible for signing it off and why so fast? This all seems rather rushed and underhand, I would be interested to know if any effort has been made to keep it.

You may be interested to know the Shack at Coventry has just been returned to her original old white 224 sqn colours last worn in 1954, she is kept as a runner with 3 I think at the moment live and the other in hand.

Hats off to them..... more details on her here

Avro Shackleton WR963 Project thread - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

[enginesuck]

Sadly, this particular rumour is true.

[Not Long Here]

Absolutely unbelieveable and a kick in the teeth for all that ever flew the aircraft from Kinloss.

[glad rag]

Well you know who to blame.

[J.A.F.O.]

glad rag, are you seriously suggesting that the Prime Minister gives a monkeys one way or the other about a gate guardian at Kinloss?

[MRA4Man]

Xv244 saved

Tallsar

It is correct that XV240 will be removed from its plinth and put into the disposal programme but the good news is that XV244, which is in much better physical condition, has been reserved for a local heritage group. Also there is a good chance that XV235 will be dismantled and transported to the RAF Museum Cold War display at Cosford. The business case is with the Nimrod Team Leader; I hope he does the decent thing and close his project team with some dignity even at this eleventh hour.

[Yellow Sun]

Well you know who to blame.

No glad rag,

The die was cast when the previous government reduced the MRA4 fleet size to 9 aircraft and subsequently decided to bring forward the MR2 OSD. Add to that the spending commitments made on the carrier programme and the current government didn't really have many options. Mr Brown has a lot to answer for.

YS

[Tallsar]

YS ...you hit the nail on the head in the strategic context....Mr Brown has during his tenure both as PM and Chancellor undone decades of change and improvement in many areas of public expenditure not least in Defence. We as a Nation are being brought low by his misguided actions... of which the demise of the MRA4 and it's LRMPA/ISTAR capability is just a very depressing and dangerous example.

MRA4 man....yes that's better news despite the despicable and early removal of the Kinloss GG.....Do not see it as a suitable action in any circumstance given KS's history and affiliation to the local community etc. Have we lost all sense of proportion these days and what is involved in these decisions beyond the financial and administrative matters. The overall MRA4 decision IMO will jar in a similar way to the actions post the demise of TSR2 all those years ago only is much more dangerous given the demise of the LRMPA capability in entirety. It is only right that the Maritime force and the MH is remembered by the preservation of a Nimrod at the front of KS for all passers- by and future occupants to view and recall. Shame on all involved in such a reprehensible decision.

[jamesdevice]

theres a fair bit of rosy-tinted unreality glass-viewing going on here.
The Nimrod fleet were hit with a double whammy
1) that Coroner's report which condemned the existing fleet as being un-airworthy - and questioned whether they had ever been. The Government & MOD were forced by that into closing down the MR2 fleet before they were ht with further crashes and legal claims. After a suitable time to make it look like the decision was not related to the report, they got rid of the potential liability
2) the MRA4 was never going to work. You had an ancient airframe which had been blacksmithed together with massive individual variation making standardisation of parts impossible, major delay in development which meant the sensor and processing electronics fit would have been ten years out of date by the time it came into service - and with the same inherent problem as with the AEW3 - not enough space in the airframe to cool the electronics / avionics. If the AEW3 couldn't be made to work, there was no way the MRA4 could. It was totally naive to try.

The fault in all this saga lies with firstly BAE for proposing yet again an impossible project, and secondly with the incompetents in the MOD who actually decided it was the best deal. The AEW3 fiasco should have taught them better. What should have been done was to take a widebody airliner and fit the proposed MRA4 electronics into it.
All the Governments did (between both of them) was shoot a pair of dead ducks

[glad rag]

Heh, you can just smell the closet tories, Cameron made the decision PERSONALLY despite protestations from such notaries as the 1SL.

Do think that the french have managed to record the sounds of our bombers yet?

[Ivan Rogov]

JD from the last post and your previous ones you come across as a keen spotter with no Mil aviation background? As welcome as your opinions are they seem very uninformed, there is a world of difference between reading an article in a magazine, on a blog or Wikipedia and knowing what you are talking about and I don't think you know what you are talking about.
I'm not trying to be offensive towards you, but I think your last post was wrong and you are trying to connect the wrong dots with ones that don't exist, MRA4 had issues but your points are fantasy. I'm sure in years to come someone will write a definitive book on the project, but many of the details will not come out until people have retired.

Conversely I concur with Tallsar, but I also think the latest Government have made a serious error, possibly on poor advice from their SME

[Not Long Here]

JD,

The recent thrust of this thread is not about the rights and wrongs of the MRA4 or the airworthiness of the MR2. Rather it is about the preservation of a piece of Maritime history in the form of the Kinloss Gate Guard.

I have just under 10,000 hours on the aircraft and nearly 30 years of involvement - in spite of the controversy surrounding its latter days, the Nimrod and the crews both air and ground, was a mighty fine capability for any nation to be proud of and that memory should have been preserved at Kinloss.

Regards

[mmitch]

Perhaps if a memorial had been put in front of it to remember the crews who had died during Nimrod service, it might have survived?
mmitch

[stbd beam]

Two things: the book IS being written, by Tony Blackman (Google him) & is called Nimrod Rise & Fall, due for publish 19th Oct - watch this space.

There is a memorial for the crew of XV230 at Kinloss which will hopefully be relocated to the proposed KS heritage centre for preservation ...

[The Old Fat One]

JD

Having crossed swords with you on another thread...fair play to you, your post above contains a great deal of truth. And I'm not a spotter, I was part of the program for a long time.

However, not what this thread is about and plenty of other threads on this subject to contribute to.

QED

[Tallsar]

JD ...your dismissal of the MRA4 while containing elements of fact that had a bearing on the development of the aircraft...are too sweeping and in the end wrong. The mission systems had been thoroughly proven, are still world class (tell the Merlin HMA fleet!) and capable against the threats apparent. As with all new aircraft of such complexity, there would have continued to be limitations and development issues...the extended introduction to service time had already resolved many them. In the end HMG decided that all the issues mitigated against taking further political and financial risks despite the major and dangerous hole now apparent in our maritime and nuclear defence. History will say whether such a decision was sensible especially when balanced against the additional expenditure we will eventually incur on the new platforms and sensor systems...whatever they turn out to be!
Not leaving a memorial Nimrod gate guardian at Kinloss remains an outrage!