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Blue Angels stood down / grounded?

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Blue Angels stood down / grounded?

Old 31st May 2011, 19:02
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Frecce are certainly very good. Red Arrows were very good on Sunday at Rochefort, but I suspect that Patrouille de France beat them by a whisker, but avec huit avions, pas neuf avions. RA's "heart" was definitely better, and got a huge round of applause from the ground.
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Old 31st May 2011, 19:10
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I think there's a fairly common misconception that the Blues or T-birds Flight Demonstration Sqn's are a bit of a joke and that they don't really stack-up against the Reds or other European display teams.

My view (and like MrB I've seen em all over the years):
  1. There's a bit of a clue in the respective titles (i.e. FDS vs RAFAT)
  2. Both the Blues and the T-birds have significantly raised their game in recent times and I don't believe the old criticisms are any longer valid, i.e. they display over the next county, too high, too many gaps between passes, not dynamic enough, etc
  3. The Reds are the best - end of!
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Old 31st May 2011, 19:13
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If you watch the video on p1 you'll see that depending on viewing angle the visible gaps vary quite significantly even though the aircraft aren't actually manoeuvering relative to each other - whilst they certainly fly very close formation, I doubt very much that it's actually 18" apart - but to be perfectly honest I don't really care that much <g> Whilst appreciating their skill, I tend to agree with Mr Bernoulli about the display, my favourites remain the Red Arrows from around 1970.

Dave
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Old 31st May 2011, 19:39
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i.e. they display over the next county
I think the Turkish Stars stole that particular honour.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 20:28
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And you have some form of documentation for this conspiracy theory? Just a link to some official USAF material would be nice... or anything credible. ( --GreenKnight121)

The final/formal 'Diamond Crash' investigation was widely questioned at the time, but there are no obvious Google links to the formal details now. Apparently, Aviation Week did publish the full USAF mishap report (publicly releasable sections)-- it's probably still in their online archives, but behind a pay wall.

An informal link here gives a flavor of the controversy:

Thunderbird crash (Ed Rasimus)

excerpt:

"The accident report was very controversial. As the only TAC unit other than the 'Birds flying the T-38, the 479th TFW at Holloman was tasked to supply both the Flying Safety Officer member and Pilot member to the accident investigation board. Both pilots were out of my unit, the 435th TFTS.

The initial report of the board was a finding of pilot error. The lead aircraft had topped out on the loop at an altitude below the minimum required to insure a safe recovery. Failure to recognize the altitude and continuation of the maneuver to the pull through meant that after reaching about 60 degrees nose low inverted, the formation was in a position from which recovery was no longer possible.

There was evidence reported that the control stick and linkages were deformed probably due to pilot effort to pull through at whatever G was available..."
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 23:56
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Thanks... that's more that I had known existed.

I had never even heard that there was any controversy at all... you were the first person to mention it to me... and I served in the USMC air wing from 1981-1989, and was following the investigation as fully as I could.

I was very interested in the details of the T-bird crash, as I had been at the airshow where the previous T-bird fatal crash occurred... Captain David "Nick" Hauck at Hill AFB 9 May 1981 (a year after I graduated high school, and less than a month before I reported to USMC boot camp).


I have seen accounts of Hauk's crash on-line that were very wrong... significantly different from what I saw on the day, as well as what was uncovered on a day-to-day basis in the local media.

One recent on-line report claimed that he had stalled and lost flight lift, crashing into the ground in an uncontrolled manner.

The USAF released a transcript of the conversation between him and the tower & flight lead, discussing his loss of engine power and that he didn't feel he could clear the cars on the road across the end of the runway just outside the base fence, so he was going to try a belly landing short of the runway.

This matched hundreds of eye-witness accounts of the aircraft being fully under control as he set it down in a field between a sub-division and the rise in the ground below the road at the south end of the runway... only to catch a wingtip on an obstruction, causing the aircraft to roll and catch fire.




So while I grant this is something tending to lend credence to your contention, it is hardly conclusive... I shall try to find the AvWeek article you mention (I have access to a library with an archive of the physical magazines from that time period).
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Old 2nd Jun 2011, 17:23
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I have watched almost all of the Display Teams....and each team has its own attraction but for sheer Pizazz I rate the Italian Team at the top. Mind you the requirement for the Teams to fly along the show line and not across the line hampers the Italian Team.

I watched them at the Agusta factory and their show start was fabulous....directly from behind the factory building/hangars with gear/flaps down...streaming colored smoke...and unseen/unheard until overhead at about a couple of hundred feet maybe. Children cried...women wailed....and Men almost wet themselves withe sudden onset of noise...smoke...and mulitple jets in close formation.
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Old 2nd Jun 2011, 17:40
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Sasless,
you just described a great many Nimrod impromptu displays, but (and I like to see this as the KEY POINT of the Nimrod version), with Nimrods not only did you get 4 jets apparently appearing from nowhere right behind you, but you also (given sharp enough eyesight) got to see a slightly careworn individual eating a pie (possibly a doughnut) overhead as aural Armageddon overtook you.

You just don't get class acts like that on the airshow circuit these days...
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Old 2nd Jun 2011, 17:43
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Originally Posted by SASless
directly from behind the factory building/hangars with gear/flaps down...streaming colored smoke...and unseen/unheard until overhead at about a couple of hundred feet maybe. Children cried...women wailed....and Men almost wet themselves withe sudden onset of noise...smoke...and mulitple jets in close formation.
Best I've seen for that was the Canadian 4 ship team of CF-104Gs in the '80s.

There was one occasion at Mildenhall when I reckon 99.9% of the crowd had no clue at all they were there until Armageddon* fell.

Only one downside - no coloured smoke.

*Good to see davejb agrees with the comparison!
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Old 2nd Jun 2011, 20:36
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GK

You're not going to find anything "conclusive", but have fun looking for it.

My source, as I stated very clearly, was on the mishap investigation. He was in the room when the conversation took place.

Beyond giving you his telephone number and email address (which I am not going to do), there is nothing more I can add. Take it or leave it.

If you did spend any time in the military, then you won't struggle with the concept that what you read in an official document may not tell the whole story of what actually happened. 'Nuff said.
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Old 2nd Jun 2011, 21:02
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> Mind you the requirement for the Teams to fly along the show line
> and not across the line hampers the Italian Team.

Their accident at Ramstein in 1988 - where sixty-seven spectators and three pilots died, and 346 spectators sustained serious injuries in the resulting explosion and fire - is why display teams must honour the crowd line.

Obviously, my favorite is the Snowbirds - nine aircraft and always in sight of the crowd.
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Old 2nd Jun 2011, 21:50
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Blue Angels "not that entertaining", you obviously never saw them at Finningley back in the day. I've never seen a display as close or as exciting as that, ever.

The Red Arrows have become a cliche of themselves and as such are incredibly cheesy, can't comment on the eyeties, other than the Ramstein crash which didn't do their reputation any favours.

All jmho
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Old 2nd Jun 2011, 23:43
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Blue Angels "not that entertaining", you obviously never saw them at Finningley back in the day. I've never seen a display as close or as exciting as that, ever.
Saw them last 3 years ago at Lakeland in Florida. Sorry, but it was just not exciting - way too much 'dead air'.
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Old 3rd Jun 2011, 06:47
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...but it was just not exciting...
And as for the utter bull**** from the commentator...
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Old 3rd Jun 2011, 08:48
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Hoodie, I saw that display also but at Fairford. Unbelievable and earth shattering noise. But what got my attention later, was one aircraft making a slow pass over the runway and I really cannot guess the height but it was quite low, when very suddenly, another 104 travelling seriously fast flew underneath. Spectacular!
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Old 3rd Jun 2011, 12:48
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I shall try to find the AvWeek article you mention (I have access to a library with an archive of the physical magazines from that time period) --GreenKnight121
Good... hope you can eventually post some key excerpts from that old USAF investigation report. Start a new thread here if you find any worthwhile info.

Looks like there are probably strong parallels between that infamous THUNDERBIRDs 'Diamond Crash' and this most recent BLUE ANGELs incident.

There have been several other recent incidents of airshow pilots misjudging their altitude on a pulldown, including that THUNDERBIRD crash at Mountain Home AFB. The last BLUE ANGEL's fatality was somewhat similar too.

Probably could start a permanent/ongoing thread somewhere in these forums about airshow/flyby/display incidents & crashes -- seems to be an unending supply of such unfortunate aviation events.
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Old 3rd Jun 2011, 13:41
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Probably could start a permanent/ongoing thread somewhere in these forums about airshow/flyby/display incidents & crashes -- seems to be an unending supply of such unfortunate aviation events.
- yours would be the second
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Old 3rd Jun 2011, 16:25
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BOAC: ...pointer to the first instance, please.
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Old 3rd Jun 2011, 17:42
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Here's one for starters: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...-c-ck-ups.html
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Old 3rd Jun 2011, 17:44
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@GANNETFAN
I think that was the German 'Vikings' display team in '84, I was only about 6 at the time but I think the fast and lower guy overcooked the speed and went a bit 'überschall'. All I remember is the loudest noise on earth, even with my dad's (he'd realised what was about to happen) hands over my ears!
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