Fast Jet Circuits
A2QFI - you FW boys take yourselves far too seriously
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The trick is to find a speed to fly through Initial, and pitch at an appropriate point past the Threshold in the 'Overhead' and not touch the power (from Idle) from that point until the touchdown.....It might take some patience on gear and flap speed...
...Of course I would never 'teach' such a technique....
...Of course I would never 'teach' such a technique....
You may find that 'Initial and pitch' is American terminology.
Needless to say, we stuck with 'VRIAB'!
It's still just showing off, no matter how seriously you take it
You could just join long finals and land but then no-one on the ground would be able to go OOOOOHHHH and AAHHHH
You could just join long finals and land but then no-one on the ground would be able to go OOOOOHHHH and AAHHHH
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by LJR
The trick is to find a speed to fly through Initial, and pitch at an appropriate point past the Threshold in the 'Overhead' and not touch the power (from Idle) from that point until the touchdown.....It might take some patience on gear and flap speed...
You could just join long finals and land but then no-one on the ground would be able to go OOOOOHHHH and AAHHHH
A formation break at the threshold from 420 KIAS/500 ft climbing to 1000 ft in the venerable old Hunter was a very effective way of losing about 270 knots in the minimum time, followed by a stream landing.
I guess you're just envious because no-one ever goes 'OOOOOHHHH and AAHHHH' at those awful clattering things you fly? Well, apart from the odd local yokel who probably throws bread to them.
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When I was a young sprog (and yes I know that was eons ago), I was taught that the VRIAB was originally done for 2 reasons.
The first is that it is the fastest and most efficient method of getting a formation into the circuit and on the ground.
The second is that your aircraft is vulnerable to attack from another aircraft for a far shorter period of time and in an area where you may possibly have some form of ground-based air defence system, even if only mates with guns. This was - of course - at a time when enemy aircraft may well have been able to float around the skies in your area willy-nilly.
The first is that it is the fastest and most efficient method of getting a formation into the circuit and on the ground.
The second is that your aircraft is vulnerable to attack from another aircraft for a far shorter period of time and in an area where you may possibly have some form of ground-based air defence system, even if only mates with guns. This was - of course - at a time when enemy aircraft may well have been able to float around the skies in your area willy-nilly.
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Beagle and Wholigan - thanks for that. Heli people don't often fly around in 4 ships, and for good reason! Thus one wouldn't expect them to know anything about it, as has been demonstrated!
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Before you Oz-lot became infected with US terminology, you also called them RIAB's old chap. But then, as with you Air Force uniform, you change things about frequently.
The trick is to find a speed to fly through Initial, and pitch at an appropriate point past the Threshold in the 'Overhead' and not touch the power (from Idle) from that point until the touchdown.....It might take some patience on gear and flap speed...
...and Wholigan....
When I was a young sprog
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or an F4 or Tornado or F16...........
Pity this has dipped into the trivial, as the first answer was spot on! The only thing I would add, is that a 'Fast Pitch to the Closed Pattern' or 'Visual Run In and Break' are both pretty much the same, and Just as Cool as Flip!
There really is no better reason to do it than that.
Advo
Pity this has dipped into the trivial, as the first answer was spot on! The only thing I would add, is that a 'Fast Pitch to the Closed Pattern' or 'Visual Run In and Break' are both pretty much the same, and Just as Cool as Flip!
There really is no better reason to do it than that.
Advo
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BEagle has it in one: the most effective way of slowing from a tactical speed is by flying a high-alpha bleed turn with idle power and airbrakes out. Us fast jet types are always in a rush when we’re on recovery because we're usually late and, more importantly, flying in a roughly straight line back to base is a boring interlude between some demanding upper air work and valuable circuit training. Oh, and the average fighter doesn't turn too well at slow speeds as well.
As for avoiding threats - you would have to be over-run by the enemy or be at a DOB for this to be a factor - what threats are you facing (ie aircraft or SAMs)? I would suggest that making a recovery to base with enemy fighters in the vicinity would be a ballsey move (and very world war 2); making a recovery with a possible SAM threat - there are other techniques that you might want to consider...
And 'crab', when you next find yourself going oooohhhh and aaahhh at a jet in the overhead, it's because all of this routine fast jet stuff just happens to look cool as well.
As for avoiding threats - you would have to be over-run by the enemy or be at a DOB for this to be a factor - what threats are you facing (ie aircraft or SAMs)? I would suggest that making a recovery to base with enemy fighters in the vicinity would be a ballsey move (and very world war 2); making a recovery with a possible SAM threat - there are other techniques that you might want to consider...
And 'crab', when you next find yourself going oooohhhh and aaahhh at a jet in the overhead, it's because all of this routine fast jet stuff just happens to look cool as well
.
And as if by magic, here I am at the home of FJ ego, RAF Valley, ready to ooh and ahhh as frightened teenagers commit airborne onanism as they manfully pull the wings off their superjet as they rejoin for some
Now, in a real ground to air threat environment (Afghan for example) where making yourself a pretty target is not SOP - would you fly 4-ship run and breaks or would you do something a little more tactical?
Maybe that is why the rotary types prefer singles and pairs and tactical, relatively unpredictable approaches.
Actually you can run and break in a helicopter but we look cool all the time and don't need to show off to those on the ground
valuable circuit training
Now, in a real ground to air threat environment (Afghan for example) where making yourself a pretty target is not SOP - would you fly 4-ship run and breaks or would you do something a little more tactical?
Maybe that is why the rotary types prefer singles and pairs and tactical, relatively unpredictable approaches.
Actually you can run and break in a helicopter but we look cool all the time and don't need to show off to those on the ground
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The huge difference between an Initial and Pitch (I&P) and a VRIAB is that the I&P is a level turn from circuit height, normally 1,000 feet, whereas a VRIAB is a climbing turn from whatever lower height you can get away with.
A lesser difference is that for a VRIB the downwind leg must be clear of other traffic. For an I&P you can have other circuit traffic, in which case you must continue upwind until you have visually accounted for all the other traffic before pitching onto the downwind leg.
The RAF JP schools would only allow 4 jets in the visual circuit at the same time. Not so " "Ronny RAAF." One night, I called at Inititial to join the circuit at RAAF Pearce. "Clear to join, ten in" was the reply from ATC. By the time I had counted all ten ahead of me, I was getting close to the boundary of Perth International.
Halcyon days!
A lesser difference is that for a VRIB the downwind leg must be clear of other traffic. For an I&P you can have other circuit traffic, in which case you must continue upwind until you have visually accounted for all the other traffic before pitching onto the downwind leg.
The RAF JP schools would only allow 4 jets in the visual circuit at the same time. Not so " "Ronny RAAF." One night, I called at Inititial to join the circuit at RAAF Pearce. "Clear to join, ten in" was the reply from ATC. By the time I had counted all ten ahead of me, I was getting close to the boundary of Perth International.
Halcyon days!
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‘crab’, so that the number of landings and the number of take offs are roughly equal (at least to the extent that the tax payer is happy) then circuit training will always take place. I guess from your ignorance on the matter that you’re not a pilot… but maybe you want to be? And it’s not just a fast jet thing. Rotary mates tend to put their steeds in plenty of tricky places with great skill, none of which they are born with and all of it has to be practiced regularly.
If you ever go to ‘Afghan’ then you won’t find any pretty or predictable 4-ship formations recovering to base there. However, if you need to put your 4 aircraft close together as one speaking unit (for the convenience of air traffic or because you are flying together in cloud) then some sort of close formation is a good and safe idea – and every opportunity you can practice it reduces the chance of something ‘unexpected’ happening.
By the way, the number of aircraft you put together just depends on what operational effect you want to have. Single aircraft tend to be more vulnerable without at least one buddy to keep watch while you’re heads-in.
So, you’re at Valley eh, looking at the frightened teenagers doing things that I couldn’t decipher from your vitriol and bad grammar? My guess is you’re in the spotter’s car park runway 19.
Edited to reduce the font size to reasonable.
If you ever go to ‘Afghan’ then you won’t find any pretty or predictable 4-ship formations recovering to base there. However, if you need to put your 4 aircraft close together as one speaking unit (for the convenience of air traffic or because you are flying together in cloud) then some sort of close formation is a good and safe idea – and every opportunity you can practice it reduces the chance of something ‘unexpected’ happening.
By the way, the number of aircraft you put together just depends on what operational effect you want to have. Single aircraft tend to be more vulnerable without at least one buddy to keep watch while you’re heads-in.
So, you’re at Valley eh, looking at the frightened teenagers doing things that I couldn’t decipher from your vitriol and bad grammar? My guess is you’re in the spotter’s car park runway 19.
Edited to reduce the font size to reasonable.
Last edited by DITYIWAHP; 9th May 2011 at 22:13.