British AH-64D's in Afghanistan
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British AH-64D's in Afghanistan
Are the British Apaches still carrying the mast sighting gear or have they done away with them after gaining some field experience in theater?
That six hundred pounds of kit trades off to either more gun ammo or fuel for loiter time over Troops in contact. The American Army quickly opted for the extra ammo so as to be able to provide more effective support to troops in contact.
That six hundred pounds of kit trades off to either more gun ammo or fuel for loiter time over Troops in contact. The American Army quickly opted for the extra ammo so as to be able to provide more effective support to troops in contact.
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AgustaWestland Apache - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So some other "cold war" kit thats no longer required acording to some pundits...
So some other "cold war" kit thats no longer required acording to some pundits...
Unlike their American counterparts in Afghanistan, the Apache AH Mk 1 is being deployed with its Longbow Fire Control Radar, which enables the pilot to better manage traffic in their airspace.[
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The American Army quickly opted for the extra ammo so as to be able to provide more effective support to troops in contact.
The American Army quickly opted for the extra ammo so as to be able to provide more effective support to troops in contact.
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Only about half were to be equipped with the FCR....and without the Mast mounted radar pod (which I called a "sighting" device which I consider a Fire Control Radar (FCR) to be...) the aircraft can carry that amount of extra ordnance and/or fuel.
Given the nature of the conflict, terrain, and tactics....all the fabulous Fulda Gap kit seems a bit of the wrong kit for the job. As there is no Airborne threat by the Taliban or Al Qaeda....that negates that function being needed. I assume AWAC's can do the traffic separation along with other systems.
We are fighting a counter-insurgency battle...against small bands of fighters hiding amongst the populus....milimeter radar cannot be of as much use as the standard kit on the Non-FCR equipped aircraft.
The extra rockets and cannon ammo would certainly be useful.
Timely Rounds on target when needed by the ground troops is the is the most important matrix by which to judge the value of gunship kit....not de-conflicting the airspace.
After all....is that not the mission of the all the attack aircraft that are supposed to be assisting the guys on the ground?
Given the nature of the conflict, terrain, and tactics....all the fabulous Fulda Gap kit seems a bit of the wrong kit for the job. As there is no Airborne threat by the Taliban or Al Qaeda....that negates that function being needed. I assume AWAC's can do the traffic separation along with other systems.
We are fighting a counter-insurgency battle...against small bands of fighters hiding amongst the populus....milimeter radar cannot be of as much use as the standard kit on the Non-FCR equipped aircraft.
The extra rockets and cannon ammo would certainly be useful.
Timely Rounds on target when needed by the ground troops is the is the most important matrix by which to judge the value of gunship kit....not de-conflicting the airspace.
After all....is that not the mission of the all the attack aircraft that are supposed to be assisting the guys on the ground?
Originally Posted by jimgriff
Not an option to remove !
The UK AAC aircraft are not AH-64Ds; Westland call them WAH-64s, to show the differences (the RTM322s are the most obvious) between them and a "standard" Longbow Apache.
MOD calls them Apache AH1.
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Per your very own Colonel Bryant.....
Longbow Radar Key to British Apache Ops in Afghanistan
A recent conversation with a very senior American Army Officer noted attempts to pass on "Lessons Learned" to the arriving WAH-64 crews met with some typical reluctance to listen re what worked and what did not. But then as the fellow said..."What the hell do we know about Apaches and gunship tactics?"
So....if you dropped the six hundred pounds of Radar gear...carried more rockets and cannon ammo....stayed on target longer....cut down the numbers of trips to re-arm and return to the fight....would you cut down on sortie count, flight hours, and most importantly....improve your ability to put rounds on target in support of the troops in contact with the enemy?
"Typically, we take off armed with 300 rounds of 30-mm. ammunition, 16 CRV-7 rockets (the FL-7 flechette version) and two Hellfires. Because we carry extra internal fuel tanks, our endurance has been extended to 2 hrs 45 mins, but the drawback is we can't take more than 300 rounds of ammo. In recent ops we found that the gun is the most-often used weapon; 300 rounds per mission is not enough so we may change out the extra tanks for more ammo," Col Brynt says.
A recent conversation with a very senior American Army Officer noted attempts to pass on "Lessons Learned" to the arriving WAH-64 crews met with some typical reluctance to listen re what worked and what did not. But then as the fellow said..."What the hell do we know about Apaches and gunship tactics?"
"Demand continually outstrips supply," says Bryant, "we exceeded our flying hours by 20-30% in the first three of my four months in the theater."
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So....if you dropped the six hundred pounds of Radar gear...carried more rockets and cannon ammo....stayed on target longer....cut down the numbers of trips to re-arm and return to the fight....would you cut down on sortie count, flight hours, and most importantly....improve your ability to put rounds on target in support of the troops in contact with the enemy?
As Lt Col Bryant states the radar is useful for deconfliction - handy when close escorting Chinooks and Merlins at low level at night in a dusty environment one imagines - as well as performing surface searches of the vast areas of desert in and around Helmand. Now given they're still carrying the radar 4 years on - just perhaps experience supports retaining Longbow.
The US Army AH-64Ds are not all equal -some have less powerful engines than others. Add in to the bargain that the US Army only received it's 400th Longbow unit last January yet has 600+ AH-64Ds in service. The main reason the FCR was removed in 2006 was to counter the increased drag penalty of the "Aviation Survivability Product Improvement" (Engine IR Suppression). Perhaps this is why the forthcoming Block III upgrade is due to improve performance, especially Hot and High.
Incidentally the Dutch didn't buy Longbow when they bought their AH-64Ds hence none to remove in Afghanistan - however they signed an upgrade contract with Boeing last month which will include Longbow kits amongst other upgrades.
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If you remove the Radar kit and the internal aux fuel....how much more weight does that save?
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Please allow me to clarify some of the issues raised above if I may. The radar can both scan the ground and provide small scale airspace deconfliction, the second of these roles is the mode it has been used in for almost all of its employment in Afghanistan (less a few specific scenarios). The removal of the FCR has been carefully considered by many deeply experienced people over the years and we have elected not to go that way. In short, it is very useful.
Without giving any specifics, the figures given regarding ammo loads and endurance are all very much out of date as the article was published nearly 3.5 years ago. Significant progress has been made on both of these issues.
It is fair to say that our lesson learned process with the Americans hasn't been perfect, they do some things very differently to the British military though and a degree of wheel re-invention was required. We do not fly around at 500ft over a contact for various reasons and have therefore been able to spend tens of thousands of hours over the green zone without losing an aircraft to enemy action.
Apologies for the lack of specific details, but OPSEC still very much applies.
Without giving any specifics, the figures given regarding ammo loads and endurance are all very much out of date as the article was published nearly 3.5 years ago. Significant progress has been made on both of these issues.
It is fair to say that our lesson learned process with the Americans hasn't been perfect, they do some things very differently to the British military though and a degree of wheel re-invention was required. We do not fly around at 500ft over a contact for various reasons and have therefore been able to spend tens of thousands of hours over the green zone without losing an aircraft to enemy action.
Apologies for the lack of specific details, but OPSEC still very much applies.
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A list of aircraft losses in Afghanistan operations.....no idea how accurate the list really is but it gives a basis to judge what risks exist.
List of aviation accidents and incidents in the War in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of aviation accidents and incidents in the War in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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If you do....some young'un just goes out and shoots it all up!
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Originally Posted by AHDriver
Apologies for the lack of specific details, but OPSEC still very much applies.
Originally Posted by SASless
If you remove the Radar kit and the internal aux fuel....how much more weight does that save?
Originally Posted by orgASMic
Most of the US Army's AH-64 fleet are A models
I/C
Last edited by Ian Corrigible; 20th Apr 2011 at 12:24. Reason: Seppo service snafu
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Noted, however there is a difference between something being available from an open source and actively advertising current capabilities and limitations.
I can only assume the reference to the 'RAF's solution' is a poor attempt at a bite...
I can only assume the reference to the 'RAF's solution' is a poor attempt at a bite...
Ian, a few numbers for you.
Aviation Week reported in January of this year:
United States Army had 727 AH-64s: 107 AH-64As, 620 AH-64Ds
US Army Posture Statement 2011 ...
That leaves ~ 90 As to be refitted a few months ago?
Your number may be off slightly, but your assessment fits the U.S Army's program aims.
Glad you brought this up. I my digging, I tripped over the Arrowhead system. (Are the Brits getting that?) This enable the AH-64 to do MOUT CAS from higher altitudes, effectively negating the RPG threat, and most Small Arms ... but creating other challenges for FAC's and crews as they coordinate fire missions in Urban Environments.
How often to UK AH-64's operate in a MOUT environment?
(If any of the above questions are OPSEC sensitive, please advise).
Aviation Week reported in January of this year:
United States Army had 727 AH-64s: 107 AH-64As, 620 AH-64Ds
US Army Posture Statement 2011 ...
End state for US Army AH-64D Longbow inventory is 810 total aircraft of which 690 will be Block III, and 120 will remain Block II.
As of December 2010, the ARNG has an inventory of 96 Block I and 3 of 96 planned Block II aircraft.
Originally Posted by [FONT=Arial
From Defense Industry Daily[/FONT]] AH-64D Block III deliveries are currently scheduled to begin in 2011. This program is currently slated to begin by updating the 284 AH-64D Block 1 helicopters via a second remanufacturing process ... they would remanufacture the Block II fleet to AH-64D Block III standard by 2020.
There are reports that the remaining 100 or so AH-64A attack helicopters in the Army’s fleet will be offered to foreign buyers, most of whom are likely to order AH-64D remanufacturing upgrades of their own.
Your number may be off slightly, but your assessment fits the U.S Army's program aims.
Glad you brought this up. I my digging, I tripped over the Arrowhead system. (Are the Brits getting that?) This enable the AH-64 to do MOUT CAS from higher altitudes, effectively negating the RPG threat, and most Small Arms ... but creating other challenges for FAC's and crews as they coordinate fire missions in Urban Environments.
How often to UK AH-64's operate in a MOUT environment?
(If any of the above questions are OPSEC sensitive, please advise).