First A-330 delivered?
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Your comparison of the commissioning of large industrial plant to the flight testing of multi billion dollar aircraft systems doesn't make any sense... whatsoever!
My post was to question the apparent concept that the aircraft would be built and then some brave chaps would take it up for a spin to see how, or if, it worked. My question has been answered.
Let's leave it at that.
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Comparative delays
If I remember aright, the civil Airbus range of products were all delivered to their first operator(s) within one year from first flight, with all their internal passenger care equipment functioning from day one. That's why I find the Boscombe schedule "relaxed".
One contributor finds that there's no comparison between checking out an aircraft variant and delivering a fully-functioning factory or industrial installation, but anyone involved in the whole process of getting an airliner "off the drawing board" and into service will tell you it's also an industrial process - there has to be a lot of concurrent activity, with production lines to be built and equipped, for example.
Apart from the refuelling pods, there are also quite a few excrescences on the "Voyager" which has gone to Boscombe (OK, there's also a spacecraft of that name, so should the RAF's craft not have a "III" suffix rather than the "II" I suggested?), so is it now up to people at Boscombe to do the wiring up, if the kit's so special that UK Eyes Only applies?
And, once again, how long will it take for Cobham to spool up?
TriStar replacement has been urgent for ages - so isn't the current arrangement a bit of "pie in the sky" - "You'll get this shiny new aeroplane chaps - we've got a wizard wheeze to make it look as if it's not costing anything, but it's still going to take time" ...
One contributor finds that there's no comparison between checking out an aircraft variant and delivering a fully-functioning factory or industrial installation, but anyone involved in the whole process of getting an airliner "off the drawing board" and into service will tell you it's also an industrial process - there has to be a lot of concurrent activity, with production lines to be built and equipped, for example.
Apart from the refuelling pods, there are also quite a few excrescences on the "Voyager" which has gone to Boscombe (OK, there's also a spacecraft of that name, so should the RAF's craft not have a "III" suffix rather than the "II" I suggested?), so is it now up to people at Boscombe to do the wiring up, if the kit's so special that UK Eyes Only applies?
And, once again, how long will it take for Cobham to spool up?
TriStar replacement has been urgent for ages - so isn't the current arrangement a bit of "pie in the sky" - "You'll get this shiny new aeroplane chaps - we've got a wizard wheeze to make it look as if it's not costing anything, but it's still going to take time" ...
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There probably following the Tristar book of words for taking on a new transport aircraft and are beavering away at Boscombe removing all the in flight entertainment equipment so they can refit it all at a later date. 
What amazes me, this time they appear to have settled on a single variant of the type... where is the fun in that?
What amazes me, this time they appear to have settled on a single variant of the type... where is the fun in that?
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Quote:
Yes I do. The aeroplane sat there for weeks being repaired....
Weeks? It was repaired over the winter months in Base Hangar and as the hangar doors had to be open for the Tristar to fit, it switched the heating off.
Bloody freezing it was.
As for Boscombe Down, well all new aircraft have to go there don't they?
Whether they need to or not because that's the way it's always been....
Yes I do. The aeroplane sat there for weeks being repaired....
Weeks? It was repaired over the winter months in Base Hangar and as the hangar doors had to be open for the Tristar to fit, it switched the heating off.
Bloody freezing it was.
As for Boscombe Down, well all new aircraft have to go there don't they?
Whether they need to or not because that's the way it's always been....
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Let's not forget,
wheel rim fell off main wheel on taxi....
Air Eng on exercise after sitting in seat on a none running aircraft for 2 hours as part of exercise looking at instruments glass six inches in front of him from his nose, tech logs them for being dusty!!
Ahh and the dreaded practice airshow at Brize when they cocked up their centre line and tried to correct it....... never ever seen vortices streaming off and compression shockwaves forming on an airliner wing before..... Admitted G loading was to be polite on the low side....
Snagging engines for not relighting at 20 million plus feet.... on pointing out that it is above what Rolls Royce say they will relight at, getting the answer, but the others did.
That'll be 10 Sqn.....
I won't mention the 10 on the Detuner spitting its IGV's and a lot more out of the back end though, As I was ermmm in it. Talk about shake rattle and roll, it did all three, including catching fire and seizing,
On approaching the fireman in his engine out front after we got it all shut down, Did he see the fire?
............. Fire??? What Fire??? are you telling me I have been a Fireman 18 years and when I finally have a real Aircraft fire I miss it? 
wheel rim fell off main wheel on taxi....
Air Eng on exercise after sitting in seat on a none running aircraft for 2 hours as part of exercise looking at instruments glass six inches in front of him from his nose, tech logs them for being dusty!!
Ahh and the dreaded practice airshow at Brize when they cocked up their centre line and tried to correct it....... never ever seen vortices streaming off and compression shockwaves forming on an airliner wing before..... Admitted G loading was to be polite on the low side....
Snagging engines for not relighting at 20 million plus feet.... on pointing out that it is above what Rolls Royce say they will relight at, getting the answer, but the others did.
That'll be 10 Sqn.....
I won't mention the 10 on the Detuner spitting its IGV's and a lot more out of the back end though, As I was ermmm in it. Talk about shake rattle and roll, it did all three, including catching fire and seizing,
On approaching the fireman in his engine out front after we got it all shut down, Did he see the fire?
............. Fire??? What Fire??? are you telling me I have been a Fireman 18 years and when I finally have a real Aircraft fire I miss it?
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What happens when the Airtanker consortium goes bust because it cannot afford to pay the extortinate interest being charged on the umpteen billion it borrowed from the Greedy/generous banks? are all the voyagers impounded leaving the RAF with no refuelling capability or are the (t)rusty old tristars and VC10s wheeled out of mothballs again?
Last edited by mikip; 23rd Apr 2011 at 10:02.
I have to disagree with some of the earlier posts. Rather than mocking those who 'commission large industrial plant and machinery', perhaps the RAF could learn a lot from them.
Frequently there are significant safety issues affecting installation, operation and quality of product. Management of the change process can be extremely complex with regard to training, maintenance, keeping the show on the road etc. Time is normally of the essence for a whole range of reasons, not least because there is always a finite budget within which manufacturers and purchasers of such industrial plant are required to operate.
In the commercial world they have to know that plant and machinery does what it says on the tin [nothing signed up until such surety exists]. that the specification will not continue to change during manufacture and installation; that the price will not escalate beyond imagination during the process by virtue of the manufacturer writing its own cheques etc!
In the commercial world the management are accountable to the shareholders for business efficiency. In the RAF the management are here today and gone tomorrow [as Robin Day once said to John Nott] and the politicians, as well as being here today and gone tomorrow, haven't got a clue how to ensure that the shareholders get value for money.
Yes safety is of paramount importance in aviation but aviation aint all that unique in these respects!
Frequently there are significant safety issues affecting installation, operation and quality of product. Management of the change process can be extremely complex with regard to training, maintenance, keeping the show on the road etc. Time is normally of the essence for a whole range of reasons, not least because there is always a finite budget within which manufacturers and purchasers of such industrial plant are required to operate.
In the commercial world they have to know that plant and machinery does what it says on the tin [nothing signed up until such surety exists]. that the specification will not continue to change during manufacture and installation; that the price will not escalate beyond imagination during the process by virtue of the manufacturer writing its own cheques etc!
In the commercial world the management are accountable to the shareholders for business efficiency. In the RAF the management are here today and gone tomorrow [as Robin Day once said to John Nott] and the politicians, as well as being here today and gone tomorrow, haven't got a clue how to ensure that the shareholders get value for money.
Yes safety is of paramount importance in aviation but aviation aint all that unique in these respects!
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I have to disagree with some of the earlier posts. Rather than mocking those who 'commission large industrial plant and machinery', perhaps the RAF could learn a lot from them.
Quote:
To allow the RAF to write the operating manual and work out the best way to use it and also the limitations on it in service.
Why was that not being done at the same time the plane was being built? I've worked on commissioning large industrial plant and we had to have the SOPs, operations manuals, and all the staff trained ready for the day after the various contractors walked out.
To allow the RAF to write the operating manual and work out the best way to use it and also the limitations on it in service.
Why was that not being done at the same time the plane was being built? I've worked on commissioning large industrial plant and we had to have the SOPs, operations manuals, and all the staff trained ready for the day after the various contractors walked out.
Thus, as Helen49 says, this will ensure that it does what it says on the tin.
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Can I also point out that QinetiQ and the RAF, (i.e. the Aircraft Test and Evaluation Collaboration, ATEC) are involve in the testing of the aircraft via a Combined Test Team with Airbus and Cobham (And probably others). It isn't just the 'RAF', nor is it just 'Airbus' conducting testing. And also, that tetsing is not just carried out by 'test pilots'.
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Why did they bother naming them at all?
I have to disagree with some of the earlier posts. Rather than mocking those who 'commission large industrial plant and machinery', perhaps the RAF could learn a lot from them.
BTW a European airline I think were suprised at the amount of corrosion they were finding in some of theirs at the first big check.
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Interesting discussion here - the project's going well, but there's still a huge amount to do
As well as getting voyager ready to operate with RAF platforms, there is also aircraft certification to achieve, which will be challenging for the first of type aircraft - the 2 point and 3 point variants. I think these are the primary reasons the aircraft will be at Boscombe for the Summer and Autumn.
It is also worth remembering that AirTanker Services has huge challenges ahead as an airline start-up. As well as achieving civilian ops and eng regulatory approvals, the company has got to recruit, train and (probably most importantly) retain flight crew, engineering and ground ops personnel in competition with the likes of Virgin (10 x A330 inbound) and a potentially strengthening industry. Finally, integrating a new airline into the RAF's legacy operations at Brize and elsewhere will be no mean feat.
As well as getting voyager ready to operate with RAF platforms, there is also aircraft certification to achieve, which will be challenging for the first of type aircraft - the 2 point and 3 point variants. I think these are the primary reasons the aircraft will be at Boscombe for the Summer and Autumn.
It is also worth remembering that AirTanker Services has huge challenges ahead as an airline start-up. As well as achieving civilian ops and eng regulatory approvals, the company has got to recruit, train and (probably most importantly) retain flight crew, engineering and ground ops personnel in competition with the likes of Virgin (10 x A330 inbound) and a potentially strengthening industry. Finally, integrating a new airline into the RAF's legacy operations at Brize and elsewhere will be no mean feat.
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Good succinct Input GO.....many don't grasp the significant new challenges that the FSTA programme has brought with it way beyond those already implicit in learning to use a shiney new tanker/transport airframe.
" the same aircraft type that isn't equipped with armour, antimissile systems and early warning kit"
I think you find that this kit has been/to be fitted to the first aircraft as seen by the various bit's added to the body of the aircraft when it landed at Boscombe Down.( look at the side of the nose and at tailend of the plane.)
Besides I think it is in AirTanker interest that these plane return to base safely.
FighterControl • Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast • View topic - 18-4-11 Boscombe Down FSTA/MRTT Arrival
I think you find that this kit has been/to be fitted to the first aircraft as seen by the various bit's added to the body of the aircraft when it landed at Boscombe Down.( look at the side of the nose and at tailend of the plane.)
Besides I think it is in AirTanker interest that these plane return to base safely.
FighterControl • Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast • View topic - 18-4-11 Boscombe Down FSTA/MRTT Arrival
Last edited by cyrilranch; 1st May 2011 at 16:18. Reason: to add pic
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Just for clarity, I understand that the programme has met all financial and completion milestones since financial close of the PFI contract in 2008. The entry to service is definitely later than originally planned and expected by the RAF; this is primarily due to the very long procurement activity leading up to contract award.
Also, FSTA is not yet fitted with cockpit armour, but will be capable of being fitted with defensive aids from aircraft 1. Both these facts have been reported in the media.
It will be interesting to watch progress going forward....
Also, FSTA is not yet fitted with cockpit armour, but will be capable of being fitted with defensive aids from aircraft 1. Both these facts have been reported in the media.
It will be interesting to watch progress going forward....
A330
Surely what is required urgently now is the AT A330 pax version without all the tanker mods ,with DAS only, to carry out the Herick trooping.
Difficult at the moment with sometimes only a couple of Tristars serviceable out of the whole fleet
Difficult at the moment with sometimes only a couple of Tristars serviceable out of the whole fleet