This is what Sweden thinks of NH90
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This is what Sweden thinks of NH90
Swedish Military Ramps Up Helicopter Fleet
(Source: TheLocal.se; published April 9, 2011)
Sweden has committed to buying 15 new American-made Black Hawk helicopters to help increase its fleet in Afghanistan.
Final negotiations are ongoing and if all goes well the first of the new machines may be delivered within a year, according to Defence Minister Sten Tolgfors.
The plan is for Swedish pilots begin training on the new helicopter system in the US this summer in readiness for the arrival of the helicopters early next year. This, according to Tolgfors will allow Sweden to increase its military presence in Afghanistan from 2013.
The entire new fleet of Black Hawks will be fully operational by 2017.
By purchasing a proven system, Sweden can reduce its costs and take delivery earlier wrote Tolgfors in the Dagens Nyheter (DN) newspaper.
Although the final cost has not been reported the government has allocated 4.7 billion kronor ($755 million) for new helicopters. The defence minister added that this sum also includes the operation of the system until 2020 and the training of pilots, crew and technicians.
The government is hoping that the purchase of the Black Hawks will provide a long term solution to Sweden's helicopter problems.
They will be hoping for a better solution than the last major acquisition of this kind, the Helicopter 14 [Swedish designation for the NH-90—Ed.], which was supposed to be delivered in 2008 but is not now expected to be fully operational until 2020.
Oz MRH90 falls into same bog hole...
(Source: TheLocal.se; published April 9, 2011)
Sweden has committed to buying 15 new American-made Black Hawk helicopters to help increase its fleet in Afghanistan.
Final negotiations are ongoing and if all goes well the first of the new machines may be delivered within a year, according to Defence Minister Sten Tolgfors.
The plan is for Swedish pilots begin training on the new helicopter system in the US this summer in readiness for the arrival of the helicopters early next year. This, according to Tolgfors will allow Sweden to increase its military presence in Afghanistan from 2013.
The entire new fleet of Black Hawks will be fully operational by 2017.
By purchasing a proven system, Sweden can reduce its costs and take delivery earlier wrote Tolgfors in the Dagens Nyheter (DN) newspaper.
Although the final cost has not been reported the government has allocated 4.7 billion kronor ($755 million) for new helicopters. The defence minister added that this sum also includes the operation of the system until 2020 and the training of pilots, crew and technicians.
The government is hoping that the purchase of the Black Hawks will provide a long term solution to Sweden's helicopter problems.
They will be hoping for a better solution than the last major acquisition of this kind, the Helicopter 14 [Swedish designation for the NH-90—Ed.], which was supposed to be delivered in 2008 but is not now expected to be fully operational until 2020.
Oz MRH90 falls into same bog hole...
If they are buying a variant of the M model Blackhawk, they are getting a darned good machine.
Guessing this means parts, spares, and some level of maintenance support.
The defence minister added that this sum also includes the operation of the system until 2020 and the training of pilots, crew and technicians.
It does not seem anyone really likes the NH-90 for tactical lift. Lack of ground clearance and cabin space seems to make it very limited. Recent Air Forces monthly implied the Germans were finding it very limited, perhaps useless, for transporting ground troops in a combat theatre.
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MRH-90 amphibious support ops
How will Australia manage trying to operate the MRH-90 (and Tiger) from LPD aircraft carriers?
Last edited by Bushranger 71; 12th Apr 2011 at 21:13.
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"Sweden has committed to buying 15 new American-made Black Hawk helicopters to help increase its fleet in Afghanistan......
..... The entire new fleet of Black Hawks will be fully operational by 2017."
Just how long do they expect the 'war' to last?
..... The entire new fleet of Black Hawks will be fully operational by 2017."
Just how long do they expect the 'war' to last?
Thread Starter
Battle zone ingress in an MRH90 is interesting. I viewed one the other day and you cannot stand up properly in the ramp area. The Blackhawk allows rapid mount and dismount either side with door gunners covering each side.
The Army guy I was talking to was sceptical about field repairs to the "plastic" fuselage as well...
The Oz Army needs to upgrade and keep a dozen or so Blackhawks
The Army guy I was talking to was sceptical about field repairs to the "plastic" fuselage as well...
The Oz Army needs to upgrade and keep a dozen or so Blackhawks
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TBM, you should expect a very stern private message from one or two regular posters here roundly abusing you for doubting that the MRH-90 and the Tiger aren't the absolute bee's knees in cutting edge battlefield support.
Unfortunately, news that the Swedes and the Germans have found the MRH-90 wanting will only increase the Australian Defence Department's need to prove that WE can make a system work that has been proven not to work overseas.
That's what we do. (Or, based on history, you be forgiven for thinking so.)
What with the debate that is dominating the Australian media at the moment, my guess is that there will now be a further delay in the Australian Defence Force taking delivery of the MRH-90 as Australia demands a multi million dollar study be done into providing a private urinal suitable for female aircrew and female front line special forces passengers to use on these aircraft.
Unfortunately, news that the Swedes and the Germans have found the MRH-90 wanting will only increase the Australian Defence Department's need to prove that WE can make a system work that has been proven not to work overseas.
That's what we do. (Or, based on history, you be forgiven for thinking so.)
What with the debate that is dominating the Australian media at the moment, my guess is that there will now be a further delay in the Australian Defence Force taking delivery of the MRH-90 as Australia demands a multi million dollar study be done into providing a private urinal suitable for female aircrew and female front line special forces passengers to use on these aircraft.
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MTOW you are indeed correct. The nanny state now exerts a major influence over the ADF. Will we have to have 'spas' in the FEBA????
Re the Tiger I'm told that it and the MRH90 were not the airframes of choice but rather the result of the industry lobby and politicians wanting some lame excuse to "create jobs"...
When the build finishes what then? Oz defense projects are stop start motoring always giving us usually a late capability at an inflated price. I won't bother listing the projects.
Re the Tiger I'm told that it and the MRH90 were not the airframes of choice but rather the result of the industry lobby and politicians wanting some lame excuse to "create jobs"...
When the build finishes what then? Oz defense projects are stop start motoring always giving us usually a late capability at an inflated price. I won't bother listing the projects.
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There could have still been potential for Australian defence industry participation had they chosen to upgrade the Iroquois to Huey II and/or enhance the Blackhawk - both well-proven battlefield support types - at much lower cost. But the problem was a former MinDef and a former Army CDF were/are both employed by Tenix/BAE Systems who have been awarded multiple major projects. Announcement of the MRH-90 and LPD acquisitions was made by former Prime Minister John Howard just a week or 2 before he called Election 2007 wherein he was defeated; so a sort of going away present for his former Minister for Defence!
Last edited by Bushranger 71; 13th Apr 2011 at 03:36.
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Here's the FMS request from Sept 10.
http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36...eden_10-63.pdf
http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36...eden_10-63.pdf
Sweden– UH-60M BLACKHAWK Helicopters
WASHINGTON, September 30, 2010 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Sept. 29 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Sweden of 15 UH-60M BLACKHAWK Helicopters and associated parts, equipment and logistical support for a complete package worth approximately $546 million.
The Government of Sweden has requested a possible sale of 15 UH-60M BLACKHAWK Helicopters, 34 T700-GE-701D General Electric Engines (30 installed and 4 spares), 15 AN/AAR-57(V)3 Common Missile Warning Systems, AN/APR-39 Radar Signal Detecting Sets, AN/AVR-2B Laser Warning Sets, Aviation Mission Planning Station, transportable operations simulator, communications equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and support equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, logistics, and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is
$546M.
....
WASHINGTON, September 30, 2010 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Sept. 29 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Sweden of 15 UH-60M BLACKHAWK Helicopters and associated parts, equipment and logistical support for a complete package worth approximately $546 million.
The Government of Sweden has requested a possible sale of 15 UH-60M BLACKHAWK Helicopters, 34 T700-GE-701D General Electric Engines (30 installed and 4 spares), 15 AN/AAR-57(V)3 Common Missile Warning Systems, AN/APR-39 Radar Signal Detecting Sets, AN/AVR-2B Laser Warning Sets, Aviation Mission Planning Station, transportable operations simulator, communications equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and support equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, logistics, and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is
$546M.
....
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Sounds like around $20million unit cost for UH-60M and the rest of the $546million for the project on-costs, including support out to 2020.
Can anybody provide good numbers for unit cost of the Australian MRH90 and the overall total project cost for 46 aircraft?
Can anybody provide good numbers for unit cost of the Australian MRH90 and the overall total project cost for 46 aircraft?
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Before someone tells me I'm dreaming, ("Tell 'im 'e's dreamin'"), I know I'm dreaming, but wouldn't it be nice to see the men in Canberra, rather than navel gazing over teenage porno Skype downloads and gender equality in combat roles(!), make the same decision as the Swedes and GIVE OUR TROOPS A PROVEN, WORKING HELICOPTER to work with, not sometime in the unspecified future, but more or less now.
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MRH90 amphibious support ops
Hmmm; maybe I asked an embarrassing question in post #13!
Just guessing, but MRH90 (and Tiger) perhaps around 20 times the unit cost of Huey II and double the cost of Blackhawk UH-60M.
See this link for an interesting analysis of helo shipboard operations: Air Power Australia Analyses
Sea State 4 seems common in Australian waters so how will the MRH90 fare on the LPDs?
Just guessing, but MRH90 (and Tiger) perhaps around 20 times the unit cost of Huey II and double the cost of Blackhawk UH-60M.
See this link for an interesting analysis of helo shipboard operations: Air Power Australia Analyses
Sea State 4 seems common in Australian waters so how will the MRH90 fare on the LPDs?
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hasn't it been there done that
Historic Maritime Trials for Cutting Edge MRH-90 - Royal Australian Navy
Historic Maritime Trials for Cutting Edge MRH-90 - Royal Australian Navy
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Originally Posted by Bushranger 71
MRH90 amphibious support ops
Hmmm; maybe I asked an embarrassing question in post #13!
Just guessing, but MRH90 (and Tiger) perhaps around 20 times the unit cost of Huey II and double the cost of Blackhawk UH-60M.
See this link for an interesting analysis of helo shipboard operations: Air Power Australia Analyses
Sea State 4 seems common in Australian waters so how will the MRH90 fare on the LPDs?
Hmmm; maybe I asked an embarrassing question in post #13!
Just guessing, but MRH90 (and Tiger) perhaps around 20 times the unit cost of Huey II and double the cost of Blackhawk UH-60M.
See this link for an interesting analysis of helo shipboard operations: Air Power Australia Analyses
Sea State 4 seems common in Australian waters so how will the MRH90 fare on the LPDs?
Originally Posted by fleabag
hasn't it been there done that
Historic Maritime Trials for Cutting Edge MRH-90 - Royal Australian Navy
Historic Maritime Trials for Cutting Edge MRH-90 - Royal Australian Navy
Date of article fleabag posted in response: 26 November 2009 (1 1/4 years ago).
So MRH-90 passed its in-depth sea & shipboard trials with flying colors... before the engines started crapping out.
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Greenknight, I think you'd do well to look at the source of the "passed with flying colours" article. The Navy newspaper is a bit like Pravda - you'll never see any bad news in it and everything is sweetness and light within the Senior Service if everything you read in it is true.
I have been led to believe that the MRH-90 still has quite limiting sea state restrictions. If that information is untrue, I'm sure someone here will be quick to tell me - but please, don't quote 'Navy News' (or whatever) as your source.
I have been led to believe that the MRH-90 still has quite limiting sea state restrictions. If that information is untrue, I'm sure someone here will be quick to tell me - but please, don't quote 'Navy News' (or whatever) as your source.
Excuse me for interjecting here, but doesn't the '90', in 'MRH90', refer to 1990, when it was supposed to be operational??
Why would anyone want an aircraft that has been in gestation for 20+/- years??
Why would anyone want an aircraft that has been in gestation for 20+/- years??
