LIBYA (Merged) Use this thread ONLY
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Fact.....to this time....Barry Boy has not addressed the Nation and explained why we are at War with Libya.
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I don't think "murder by UNSCR 1973" was on the agenda ... although perhaps someone was vaguely hoping to be able to say "Whoops, sorry about that, Mrs Gadaffi ...".
The approved mission surely remains to stop The Duck murdering civilians? Which is a foggy scenario anyway, as well know. The civilians are revolting, The Duck doesn't like that and reacts with violence ... so we attack The Duck's civilians [who may, or may not, be in the military]. FFS, who dug this political hole for the military to sit in?
And will the next Nation care to step up to the plate for another UNSCR Resolution? We seem to have a few contenders who are also shooting civilians, and that's where I wonder [as do many others here, I believe] just where we're headed with this philosophy.
There are plenty who fit those parameters [perm any two from five].
Or is it just that The Duck is flavour of this month, and we'll all be dropping stuff on Yemen, Bahrein, Syria, Jordan and a few other places with sand in April? [May, June, July, August .... etc]
The approved mission surely remains to stop The Duck murdering civilians? Which is a foggy scenario anyway, as well know. The civilians are revolting, The Duck doesn't like that and reacts with violence ... so we attack The Duck's civilians [who may, or may not, be in the military]. FFS, who dug this political hole for the military to sit in?
And will the next Nation care to step up to the plate for another UNSCR Resolution? We seem to have a few contenders who are also shooting civilians, and that's where I wonder [as do many others here, I believe] just where we're headed with this philosophy.
- US Global Policeman?
- This guy has OIL?
- We hate him anyway?
- He doesn't agree with our views?
- He sponsors terrorism?
There are plenty who fit those parameters [perm any two from five].
Or is it just that The Duck is flavour of this month, and we'll all be dropping stuff on Yemen, Bahrein, Syria, Jordan and a few other places with sand in April? [May, June, July, August .... etc]
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I shall in future refer to the "Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriyaas" as "Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi"
I hope that helps you, and also addresses my incipient infantilism.
I hope that helps you, and also addresses my incipient infantilism.
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My guess, although not necessarily being very informed, is that concerns for various interests will often be part of our political reality. Regardless of that, UNSCR 1973 is alive and being enforced.
I respect and share some concerns for some of the potential consequences of this action (bearing e.g. the Balkans in mind), but nonetheless I like to think that we're doing something right. I figure that the UN should have its reasons for the resolution and that some real moral considerations have been put into it.
I also have some thoughts and questions regarding responses to events in countries such as Sudan, Yemen, Syria etc. I can only guess that many considerations enter into this. We live in a complex and somewhat unfair world filled with unknowns, dilemmas, hard decisions etc. We can only do our best. Doing something might beat doing nothing. An inch is a mile, if you like.
Cheers
I respect and share some concerns for some of the potential consequences of this action (bearing e.g. the Balkans in mind), but nonetheless I like to think that we're doing something right. I figure that the UN should have its reasons for the resolution and that some real moral considerations have been put into it.
I also have some thoughts and questions regarding responses to events in countries such as Sudan, Yemen, Syria etc. I can only guess that many considerations enter into this. We live in a complex and somewhat unfair world filled with unknowns, dilemmas, hard decisions etc. We can only do our best. Doing something might beat doing nothing. An inch is a mile, if you like.
Cheers
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Air Power Alone?
Could we be witnessing another Kosovo - where Air Power is decisive in changing the outcome? Watch this space in my opinion. Air power... and sub launched TLAMs - but no boots and no expensive 'stay-cation' on foreign soil.
Easy Street wrote
Not a clearance for this op. I saw them being tested back in early February by 41 Squadron.
TJ
TEEJ's third video shows GR4 carrying 2 x ASRAAM - a new clearance rushed through for this op? Looks like the old girl has a sting in the tail for her last few years in service!
TJ
Could we be witnessing another Kosovo - where Air Power is decisive in changing the outcome?
Air power... and sub launched TLAMs - but no boots and no expensive 'stay-cation' on foreign soil.
I agree with your overall thrust, though. If the use of air and sea power does the business unaided (from a NATO point of view) then it would be a major boost for those who have championed the role of the RAF throughout a decade where it has been consistently portrayed as a "supporting" service, both by the uneducated and the malicious.
Can someone explain to me what taking out Libyan Army armoured vehicles with smart bombs (as I've seen RAF Tornadoes doing on TV) has to do with a no-fly zone?
All that has been ruled out is a ground occupation; even a short-term ground intervention is arguably within the scope of 1973 (that does not mean I think it would be a good idea!)
Sounds like RAPTOR is being used to locate Gadaffi's armour before sending in coalition aircraft to mop them up. The informative quote below is pasted from the "more info" section of the following Youtube clip posted by MoD:
The following Telegraph report suggests that the Gioia det have indeed "checked in, not dug in". What with Storm Shadow, RAPTOR and Brimstone this is turning out to be quite a demonstration of the capability of an 'obsolete' aircraft.
Telegraph
The following Telegraph report suggests that the Gioia det have indeed "checked in, not dug in". What with Storm Shadow, RAPTOR and Brimstone this is turning out to be quite a demonstration of the capability of an 'obsolete' aircraft.
Telegraph
Time line Info below:
23 March 2011
An RAF TORNADO GR4 recce mission on the 23 Mar generated RAPTOR imagery identifying Gadaffi's ground forces in a hostile posture 2.5 miles S of AJDABIYA. The imagery was sent to the! RAF's Tactical Imagery Wing (TIW) cell within the JFACHQ in Ramstein for analysis.
24 March 2011
At 1335Z a pair of RAF TORNADO GR4 took off from Gioia del Colle tasked with an Armed Reconnaissance mission in the AJDABIYA area.
At 1435Z, soon after the TORNADO'S arrival over AJDABIYA, the Coalition Combined Air Operations Centre (CAOC) in Ramstein passed the coordinates of a number of Libyan Main Battle tanks to Coalition aircraft in the area; this included the two RAF TORADO'S. The information had been supplied by the TIW Cell based on their assessment of the imagery collected on the previous day.
The TORNADO'S arrived over the target area and identified 4 x MBT. The tanks were still positioned 2.5 miles south of AJDABIYA, with barrels elevated and pointing north towards the town. They were deemed to have clear hostile intent. Other Coalition aircraft located and identified the remaining 6 x MBT.
The TORNADO'S th! en rendezvoused with the VC10 tanker on station in the area for fuel while the other Coalition aircraft identified and engaged their targets; destroying 6 x MBT.
At 1450 post refuelling, the RAF TORNADO'S returned to the target area and, having re-confirmed the targets were still in a hostile posture and that the area was clear of civilians, successfully engaged the 4 x MBT with Brimstone missiles.
One of the Strikes was delayed when a civilian vehicle was spotted close to the target, with the aircraft re-engaging once the vehicle was outside of the danger area.
Initial Battle Damage Assessment indicates all three MBT were destroyed.
At 1735Z the TORNADO'S landed back at Gioia del Colle.
23 March 2011
An RAF TORNADO GR4 recce mission on the 23 Mar generated RAPTOR imagery identifying Gadaffi's ground forces in a hostile posture 2.5 miles S of AJDABIYA. The imagery was sent to the! RAF's Tactical Imagery Wing (TIW) cell within the JFACHQ in Ramstein for analysis.
24 March 2011
At 1335Z a pair of RAF TORNADO GR4 took off from Gioia del Colle tasked with an Armed Reconnaissance mission in the AJDABIYA area.
At 1435Z, soon after the TORNADO'S arrival over AJDABIYA, the Coalition Combined Air Operations Centre (CAOC) in Ramstein passed the coordinates of a number of Libyan Main Battle tanks to Coalition aircraft in the area; this included the two RAF TORADO'S. The information had been supplied by the TIW Cell based on their assessment of the imagery collected on the previous day.
The TORNADO'S arrived over the target area and identified 4 x MBT. The tanks were still positioned 2.5 miles south of AJDABIYA, with barrels elevated and pointing north towards the town. They were deemed to have clear hostile intent. Other Coalition aircraft located and identified the remaining 6 x MBT.
The TORNADO'S th! en rendezvoused with the VC10 tanker on station in the area for fuel while the other Coalition aircraft identified and engaged their targets; destroying 6 x MBT.
At 1450 post refuelling, the RAF TORNADO'S returned to the target area and, having re-confirmed the targets were still in a hostile posture and that the area was clear of civilians, successfully engaged the 4 x MBT with Brimstone missiles.
One of the Strikes was delayed when a civilian vehicle was spotted close to the target, with the aircraft re-engaging once the vehicle was outside of the danger area.
Initial Battle Damage Assessment indicates all three MBT were destroyed.
At 1735Z the TORNADO'S landed back at Gioia del Colle.
Now as I recall....there was an almighty crying about maintaining OPSEC by the usual suspects....where is the whining now that the RAF itself is providing all sorts of details as to bases, weapons, aircraft, and the like?
Gone awfully quiet all of a sudden!
But....we do need to brag a bit so that trumps OPSEC does it?
Gone awfully quiet all of a sudden!
But....we do need to brag a bit so that trumps OPSEC does it?
All this stuff gets vetted by the deployed units themselves and then by the operational-level HQ before being released to Media Ops. That is very different from people "mouthing off" on here with no oversight, as was happening a week ago!
I also suspect that the (very detailed) information being released is part of a campaign to show Gadaffi's remaining forces that their only chance of survival is to defect now. Just as he is trying (unsuccessfully) to show that we are killing his civilians, in order to fracture the coalition. When he does it, it's called propaganda; when we do it, it's called Info Ops . Obviously someone has decided that the risk to OPSEC is outweighed by the possible operational advantage to be gained... we'll see...
I also suspect that the (very detailed) information being released is part of a campaign to show Gadaffi's remaining forces that their only chance of survival is to defect now. Just as he is trying (unsuccessfully) to show that we are killing his civilians, in order to fracture the coalition. When he does it, it's called propaganda; when we do it, it's called Info Ops . Obviously someone has decided that the risk to OPSEC is outweighed by the possible operational advantage to be gained... we'll see...
Last edited by Easy Street; 27th Mar 2011 at 01:03.
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Sasless,
Why is it that when the RAF do a bit of positive pr, the bell goes off on the prune outrage bus? I seem to recall that when hms Cumberland went in, she had to make an unscheduled stop in Crete to uplift some 'stores'. The stores included a full complement of camera crews and hacks to cover the evacuation. Good pr for the services gets us more into the public eye, gets us more of the budget (or less cuts) etc.
If this goes on like I think it will, the rebels will be knocking on the colnels door inside a few weeks, thanks to air power.
Why is it that when the RAF do a bit of positive pr, the bell goes off on the prune outrage bus? I seem to recall that when hms Cumberland went in, she had to make an unscheduled stop in Crete to uplift some 'stores'. The stores included a full complement of camera crews and hacks to cover the evacuation. Good pr for the services gets us more into the public eye, gets us more of the budget (or less cuts) etc.
If this goes on like I think it will, the rebels will be knocking on the colnels door inside a few weeks, thanks to air power.
Last edited by high spirits; 27th Mar 2011 at 07:58.
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But....we do need to brag a bit so that trumps OPSEC does it?
Got it in one ! Sadly the Harrier PR was more opsec, so the wander-bomber, ( deliberate spelling ) as it had each 2 shouty occupants who later went on to positions of influence, thus won the battle of the procurement / keep argument whether it was any good or not...
In an age when bankers who should be lined up against a wall and shot ( thoroughly ) seem to win over common sense, why am I not surprised ?!
Got it in one ! Sadly the Harrier PR was more opsec, so the wander-bomber, ( deliberate spelling ) as it had each 2 shouty occupants who later went on to positions of influence, thus won the battle of the procurement / keep argument whether it was any good or not...
In an age when bankers who should be lined up against a wall and shot ( thoroughly ) seem to win over common sense, why am I not surprised ?!
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may i interject with a question?
does the RAF need something like the italian `ECR` version for `day 1 SEAD` mission? maybe a conversion of exisiting and soon to be retired GR4`s?, seems to me like a good idea as the 2 are really quite close. but maybe im just in fantasy land
does the RAF need something like the italian `ECR` version for `day 1 SEAD` mission? maybe a conversion of exisiting and soon to be retired GR4`s?, seems to me like a good idea as the 2 are really quite close. but maybe im just in fantasy land
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'Got it in one ! Sadly the Harrier PR was more opsec'
Hmmm, I seem to remember hearing lots of press about the Harrier when it was in Herrick.
What's wrong with a bit of PR? Especially PR which shows the RAF still coming up with the goods, despite the tonka-bashing, pro-harrier/carrier brigade's ramblings. Last I checked we're all on the same team.
Hmmm, I seem to remember hearing lots of press about the Harrier when it was in Herrick.
What's wrong with a bit of PR? Especially PR which shows the RAF still coming up with the goods, despite the tonka-bashing, pro-harrier/carrier brigade's ramblings. Last I checked we're all on the same team.
Some of you lot should re-read your posts; your toy-throwing inane, ill-informed ramblings are an embarassment. And several of you need to take a chill pill or 2.