Quarter of RAF trainee pilots to be sacked
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: arrrrrrrgh
Age: 55
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but I know who I would rather be sat behind sipping a G&T when SLF, rather than some clown who flicks the wrong switches.
I fear you may spilled some of your G&T.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While it is sad to see these go , the youngest fleet is 22 years old.
The trainees have been binned because they are surplus, but is upsetting you guys only because they are officers, NCA will barely get a look in and as for enlisted - forget it.
So it's tears in the G&T and move on.
In 4 or 5 years time , recruitment may pick up and it's ego trips all round again!
The trainees have been binned because they are surplus, but is upsetting you guys only because they are officers, NCA will barely get a look in and as for enlisted - forget it.
So it's tears in the G&T and move on.
In 4 or 5 years time , recruitment may pick up and it's ego trips all round again!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: arrrrrrrgh
Age: 55
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite right MSF there has been some absolute clap trap written in this thread. Lots of wailing and waiving of arms and getting on that outrage bus..........But as you say, what about the 300+ NCA and WSO's and the 4000+ ground crew who are about to get the sack?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: PIRB
Age: 62
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Er, No ! I was at DIOT Cranwell but got chopped owing to thinking a bit too much out of the box and treating all members of the RAF as equals whatever rank, didnt go down too well with the DS
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: the magic kingdom
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe the worst thing is not the numbers or the reasoning but the way the RAF longs for ethos and core values and to be RAF through and through and engender a family spirit. Then they look to get rid like civvies pretty poor for that reason alone in my opinion
What a load of tosh! Typical BBC Look North amateur reporting! I suspect Linton will close and so will other RAF training establishments across the UK. Consolidation of pilot training should be a priority and I believe might all be done at one base. Cranwell and its satelites must surely top the bill?
Difficult decisions will have to be made. These may include the loss of CFS,the Red Arrows and other support activities. RAF ambition must establish and maintain the maximum number of frontline pilots, trained in-house, to the highest standards expected and achieved since 1945.
This will require forward thinking and imagination but should be regarded as essential if the RAF is to maintain operational expertise.
Difficult decisions will have to be made. These may include the loss of CFS,the Red Arrows and other support activities. RAF ambition must establish and maintain the maximum number of frontline pilots, trained in-house, to the highest standards expected and achieved since 1945.
This will require forward thinking and imagination but should be regarded as essential if the RAF is to maintain operational expertise.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: SW
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot Training All At One Base???
What a great suggestion!
Aircraft need a lot of space, not just to land on but airspace. Are you really suggesting that all training activities should be conducted in the same already fairly congested airspace over some of the flattest, dull terrain in the country?
The reason that training bases are spread out is because they and their dedicated user areas, danger areas, areas of intense aerial activity and relief landing grounds are needed for, yes training.
Getting rid of CFS may reduce the chances of getting those "best pilots since 1945". Do you have any experience of military flying training Newt?
Aircraft need a lot of space, not just to land on but airspace. Are you really suggesting that all training activities should be conducted in the same already fairly congested airspace over some of the flattest, dull terrain in the country?
The reason that training bases are spread out is because they and their dedicated user areas, danger areas, areas of intense aerial activity and relief landing grounds are needed for, yes training.
Getting rid of CFS may reduce the chances of getting those "best pilots since 1945". Do you have any experience of military flying training Newt?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: in my combat underpants
Age: 53
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then they look to get rid like civvies pretty poor for that reason alone in my opinion
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone here read Lord Tedder's autobiography ('With Prejudice')? He writes of a very similar crisis during the Great Depression, where the money men, short of cash, attempted to farm out all RAF training to civil flying training establishments. (The more things change, the more they stay the same.) I can't remember the details, but at great risk to his career, Tedder pulled what could only be called a swiftie in stopping this plan from going ahead.
Had the money men had their way, the RAF would have been woefully short of a training establishment to oversee the massive expansion of WW2.
I'm quite a long way removed from the coal face, especially in the UK, but from afar, it would seem to me that most of the ire so many must be quite rightfully feeling over these swingeing cuts must surely be placed squarely at the door of one Tony Blair and those of his government.
I just hope David Cameron doesn't throw all the proverbial babies out with the bath water. My sincere commisserations to to the many adversely affected.
Had the money men had their way, the RAF would have been woefully short of a training establishment to oversee the massive expansion of WW2.
I'm quite a long way removed from the coal face, especially in the UK, but from afar, it would seem to me that most of the ire so many must be quite rightfully feeling over these swingeing cuts must surely be placed squarely at the door of one Tony Blair and those of his government.
I just hope David Cameron doesn't throw all the proverbial babies out with the bath water. My sincere commisserations to to the many adversely affected.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: planet earth
Posts: 451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
*
Quite right MSF there has been some absolute clap trap written in this thread. Lots of wailing and waiving of arms and getting on that outrage bus..........But as you say, what about the 300+ NCA and WSO's and the 4000+ ground crew who are about to get the sack?
Quite right MSF there has been some absolute clap trap written in this thread. Lots of wailing and waiving of arms and getting on that outrage bus..........But as you say, what about the 300+ NCA and WSO's and the 4000+ ground crew who are about to get the sack?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France 46
Age: 77
Posts: 1,743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
newt
I am absolutely fascinated by your logic!!
If, as you suggest, the RAF closes CFS - would you please enlighten us as to who is going to train the QFI's you foresee doing the "In House" training?
I am absolutely fascinated by your logic!!
If, as you suggest, the RAF closes CFS - would you please enlighten us as to who is going to train the QFI's you foresee doing the "In House" training?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Newt is probably well qualified to comment. He is one of the few that post here with a comprehensive profile.
While at first glance most people have dismissed his suggestion, step back. If the pilot requirement has just been cut by near half it is unlikely to ramp up to its previous level.
You never know, he may well have forecast the future, and don't for one moment think that what he suggested is unthinkable.
While at first glance most people have dismissed his suggestion, step back. If the pilot requirement has just been cut by near half it is unlikely to ramp up to its previous level.
You never know, he may well have forecast the future, and don't for one moment think that what he suggested is unthinkable.
Well SOL your points about airspace etc are valid but with the requirement now to train only a handful every year, I cannot see any problems. Satellite stations and detachments to other military/civilian establishments have always been an option for specific training requirements.
My point is that now seems to be the time to consolidate and construct a training system that provides the RAF with a team of highly trained professional pilots in very small numbers!
Oh, I nearly forgot SOL! If you had taken the time to look at my profile you would have seen that I do have a good deal of experience with military training! The rest is
My point is that now seems to be the time to consolidate and construct a training system that provides the RAF with a team of highly trained professional pilots in very small numbers!
Oh, I nearly forgot SOL! If you had taken the time to look at my profile you would have seen that I do have a good deal of experience with military training! The rest is
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Satellite stations and detachments to other military/civilian establishments have always been an option for specific training requirements.
The sentiments expressed in this thread explain very clearly why the RAF (indeed Defence) is in the mess that it is.
If ever there was a clear need to make redundancies, then this is it. The training system is currently set up to produce far too many pilots for the number of cockpits (and other posts) that will be available. If we keep the flow going, then the ONLY way the total numbers of pilots in the RAF could be balanced would be to increase even further the number of trained and experienced pilots that will have to be selected for redundancy. This would be far more expensive, massively increase dilution on sqns, and potentially lead to compulsary redundancy for people who have given years of loyal service. Is that what you would prefer? And while it is crap to have to do so, at least the proposed method to achieve the cuts in studes (as explained by MrFlibble) seems a fair one.
More fundamentally though, the constant whining about accountants and bean-counters shows why we in the Services are babes in the wood in the modern world. It IS all about the money AND IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN! It is specifically because our 4-stars have failed over the last 10 years to grasp the nettle of the unaffordability of our plans that we have ended up in this crisis. It was not unforseen, it was not primarily caused by Labour's financial mismanagement (check out the fairly even profile of the Defence Vote from 1997-2009 if you don't believe me) and it was bloody obvious for years, but no-one was prepared to stick their head above the parapet and address the issue. Oh, this bliss of having 'war-fighters' at the top...
If ever there was a clear need to make redundancies, then this is it. The training system is currently set up to produce far too many pilots for the number of cockpits (and other posts) that will be available. If we keep the flow going, then the ONLY way the total numbers of pilots in the RAF could be balanced would be to increase even further the number of trained and experienced pilots that will have to be selected for redundancy. This would be far more expensive, massively increase dilution on sqns, and potentially lead to compulsary redundancy for people who have given years of loyal service. Is that what you would prefer? And while it is crap to have to do so, at least the proposed method to achieve the cuts in studes (as explained by MrFlibble) seems a fair one.
More fundamentally though, the constant whining about accountants and bean-counters shows why we in the Services are babes in the wood in the modern world. It IS all about the money AND IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN! It is specifically because our 4-stars have failed over the last 10 years to grasp the nettle of the unaffordability of our plans that we have ended up in this crisis. It was not unforseen, it was not primarily caused by Labour's financial mismanagement (check out the fairly even profile of the Defence Vote from 1997-2009 if you don't believe me) and it was bloody obvious for years, but no-one was prepared to stick their head above the parapet and address the issue. Oh, this bliss of having 'war-fighters' at the top...
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: london
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Really sorry to hear about this and I feel for you chaps who are just short of gaining what you have earned.
I agree with MSF – this does need to be put in perspective by us, and by the media. Whilst very say, these trainee pilots are probably amongst the most employable of all those to be made redundant. They are predominantly young, clearly capable and many of them will have the ability to engage back up of parents of middle incomes. Their University qualifications still hold currency and they are marketable in the workplace.
The real tragedy is with the (proverbial) 47 year old bloke who just lost his job, 3 kids, lives on a council estate, earns 16K a year as a hard grafting bin man because he wasn’t born with the opportunities/luck that many of us were. He is likely to be turned over for every future job owing to age, commitments, qualifications etc etc. This bloke has dreams and aspirations too and is far more worthy of sympathy so I think we need to put our comments more into perspective. For every one pilot there will be hundreds like him whose families will be almost written off permanently by this recession.
Advice for those trainee pilots made redundant? Try to stay positive. Be careful how you approach your RAF time on your CV and in interview. If you are going for a job in, say, finance and have a finance degree then putting ‘I was an RAF pilot’ at the top of your achievements and making it out as though it was your only dream and that you are brokenhearted will only put the employer off. Frame the RAF as a period in your life/amibition that did not work out – but not your entire life coming to an end. Talk about how IOT skills and flying training skills show you are capable to be in finance. Be proud of the RAF, but make sure they know it is behind you and a part of your development as an employee rather than a great dream snatched from you. Your answer to the interview question ‘you must have been gutted’ should be something like ‘yes but I am excited about this opportunity now’ etc etc. From dark shadow to new horizon! Use it as an example of coping with challanges at interviews. 'I went out, got work experience, sought careers advice, altered my horizons' etc etc.
You are entering a civilian market place (if you are not going for an airline job) where most HR people probably will not care about your experience or might see it as a threat/risk ‘you top gun god you!’. You need to manage this situation. Try to circumvent HR departments if possible. They would rather see 4 weeks work experience in a relevant job than two years as an RAF Officer/Pilot. They would also rather chat all day and slack off than actually properly read CVs. If they do read your CV they might see you as over qualified or not truly interested in the job owing to their narrow mindedness and well-known lack of brain power. Contact Directors directly where possible and get yourself on Linkedin. Get your network going now. If you struggle then get work experience! Contact a Director in your desired line of work, employ the sympathy card and say you will work for free for a few weeks – make coffee, do the copying if necessary. Proove yourself. The worst that can happen is that you get a reference from a civvy employer showing that you can adapt to the civilian workplace.
Chin up! Good luck!
I agree with MSF – this does need to be put in perspective by us, and by the media. Whilst very say, these trainee pilots are probably amongst the most employable of all those to be made redundant. They are predominantly young, clearly capable and many of them will have the ability to engage back up of parents of middle incomes. Their University qualifications still hold currency and they are marketable in the workplace.
The real tragedy is with the (proverbial) 47 year old bloke who just lost his job, 3 kids, lives on a council estate, earns 16K a year as a hard grafting bin man because he wasn’t born with the opportunities/luck that many of us were. He is likely to be turned over for every future job owing to age, commitments, qualifications etc etc. This bloke has dreams and aspirations too and is far more worthy of sympathy so I think we need to put our comments more into perspective. For every one pilot there will be hundreds like him whose families will be almost written off permanently by this recession.
Advice for those trainee pilots made redundant? Try to stay positive. Be careful how you approach your RAF time on your CV and in interview. If you are going for a job in, say, finance and have a finance degree then putting ‘I was an RAF pilot’ at the top of your achievements and making it out as though it was your only dream and that you are brokenhearted will only put the employer off. Frame the RAF as a period in your life/amibition that did not work out – but not your entire life coming to an end. Talk about how IOT skills and flying training skills show you are capable to be in finance. Be proud of the RAF, but make sure they know it is behind you and a part of your development as an employee rather than a great dream snatched from you. Your answer to the interview question ‘you must have been gutted’ should be something like ‘yes but I am excited about this opportunity now’ etc etc. From dark shadow to new horizon! Use it as an example of coping with challanges at interviews. 'I went out, got work experience, sought careers advice, altered my horizons' etc etc.
You are entering a civilian market place (if you are not going for an airline job) where most HR people probably will not care about your experience or might see it as a threat/risk ‘you top gun god you!’. You need to manage this situation. Try to circumvent HR departments if possible. They would rather see 4 weeks work experience in a relevant job than two years as an RAF Officer/Pilot. They would also rather chat all day and slack off than actually properly read CVs. If they do read your CV they might see you as over qualified or not truly interested in the job owing to their narrow mindedness and well-known lack of brain power. Contact Directors directly where possible and get yourself on Linkedin. Get your network going now. If you struggle then get work experience! Contact a Director in your desired line of work, employ the sympathy card and say you will work for free for a few weeks – make coffee, do the copying if necessary. Proove yourself. The worst that can happen is that you get a reference from a civvy employer showing that you can adapt to the civilian workplace.
Chin up! Good luck!
